I forgot about this thread and only now was reminded that it exists. Hopefully someone joins me in bringing it to life, since I'm sure many people have something to say about at least one of a few dozen past characters.

Anyway, Yukari. One her characteristic that is crucial to me but I noted is absent in past posts is that she's the main ideologue of Gensokyo. Other people may repeat ideas like "there must be balance in Gensokyo", "humans must fear and exterminate youkai", "youkai must threaten humans", but what if we look closer? Reimu simply enforces this ideology without ever reflecting on it or questioning it, Akyuu is explicitly under Yukari's influence (she reviews her writings), what of Aya, just a quote from >>17522:
>Ran has outright said that Yukari gives orders no-one else can even think of, and that she could never understand, much less solve Yukari's equations. And Ran's article in BAiJR, where she says all this, is specifically about the kitsune being extremely intelligent.
That's just a classic example of media framing and manipulation. It's also Yukari who goes at length to enforce those ideas the most - her Bougetsushou scheme about Eirin and Kaguya, who supposedly must fear youkai because they chose human life (however hypocritical that sounds when you look at series' protagonists, for one). The ultimate expression of them, of course, is Gensokyo itself. Sure, other beings were involved in its creation, but as I understand Okina doesn't really care about ideas side and Kasen is more on the enforcing side and cares more about different things including herself (I confess I still haven't read WaHH so feel free to argue me down here especially), so, as I see it, Yukari always was the heart and driver of Gensokyo project, enlisting like-minded people under her banner. Due to all that, my personal view of her over time shifted to something like of a respectable antagonist - she is an architect of distasteful, overbearing status quo built on pretense, theatrics and hypocrisy, but she has clear reasons for doing what she does and has the competency to back it - she's definitely a masterful schemer, able to herd others toward working on her goals, in that I agree with both original posters. It's just my heart isn't on her side.

Another side of her is that she's essentially to me a youkai who desperately tries to look youkai-like. It's, of course, articles by Aya and Akyuu describing her in what light she needs (and touhou fans buy into it!), but also her general behaviour. I see what >>17523 and >>17525 describe as desire and self-inflicted duty to look mysterious, distant and whimsical, to maintain airs of a youkai sage - even if she feels lonely as a result.

Also, it's a bit weird no one mentioned Maribel thing, but Yukari being a former human ties in nicely with the above, even though it may be a bad taste. Also, it's sometimes mentioned that Yukari has mokumokuren traits - my idea is that she took them at one point to tie himself to an existing youkai and look even more youkai-like.

>>17522
>My personal read is that she's just one of those people that's extremely confident in themselves. She knows she can effortlessly run circles around 99% of Gensokyo, whether that's in scheming or just outright danmaku. As such, she doesn't feel the need to prove anything to herself or others, and is a more dangerous schemer because of it.
Because of this "desire to look like", I don't think Yukari is really confident. In her scheming abilities - maybe, as a professional, but not in herself, and that shows sometimes. It's just she's a good actor to not let it show most of the time.

>It's difficult to even come up with a scenario that would meaningfully break Yukari's confidence, given that she's extremely good at scheming and ultimately on Gensokyo's side. Delivering a defeat that she wouldn't just shrug off would likely mean shattering the status quo in some form or another, and if you want it to be one she can't recover from and hit back harder, you're probably looking at apocalypse level damage.
I think to really shake Yukari, it's not necessary to inflict some actual damage to Gensokyo (though destroying her works certainly would affect her). Think Bougetsushou's ending - some symbolic act of defeating her, of seeing a person beneath her youkai mystique is, in my opinion, is what will be most painful for her.

>>17525
>From these two instances we see that Yukari does have plans that go accordingly, but they aren't perfect. Perfect for Yukari seems to be anything she doesn't need to put her hand in, she stirs the pot only enough to stir others into action, otherwise she handles things without anyone knowing.
Well, isn't exactly that a mark of a good schemer? As an adage goes, no plan survives reality, but Yukari adapts and makes others step in to do what she needs.

>>17971
Exactly, yes. That's a spot-on read - at least that's what I believe is the most accurate to the text and the most compelling. All of this is actually why I dislike this character a fair bit - it started out pretty shallow, I simply didn't like her th8 appearance and its overrepresentarion in fanart (not a fan of that white underdress), but the more I learnt about her, the more that dislike became akin to resentment and indignation. The whole Gensokyo charade may be relatively harmless, but that kind of person is actually very dangerous! These people make for good fictional characters, but I can never fully enjoy watching them, because a magnificent bastard is really just a bastard in real life, and it's always at the back of my mind no matter what.

>Another side of her is that she's essentially to me a youkai who desperately tries to look youkai-like. It's, of course, articles by Aya and Akyuu describing her in what light she needs (and touhou fans buy into it!), but also her general behaviour. I see what >>17523 and >>17525 describe as desire and self-inflicted duty to look mysterious, distant and whimsical, to maintain airs of a youkai sage - even if she feels lonely as a result.
Oh yes. She very much seems like someone who is trying to project an image, though I believe that it's not exactly hard to detect that this image is deliberately invoked and not natural. People like that are annoying, right? Even if you can't exactly see through it, you can still tell that they're showing off, and they insist on it, they never drop it, it's much like the uncanny valley effect, annoying, right? It's even worse when they're trying to appear distant, or nonchalant.
Which is why
>Because of this "desire to look like", I don't think Yukari is really confident. In her scheming abilities - maybe, as a professional, but not in herself, and that shows sometimes. It's just she's a good actor to not let it show most of the time.
I agree. Her confident air is really just a part of that same image, isn't it?

>Also, it's sometimes mentioned that Yukari has mokumokuren traits - my idea is that she took them at one point to tie himself to an existing youkai and look even more youkai-like.
That's clever! Merry would do something like that.

>some symbolic act of defeating her, of seeing a person beneath her youkai mystique is, in my opinion, is what will be most painful for her.
Exactly. The worst you can do to such a person is not take them seriously, not buy into their game. Well, it requires a certain amount of power to be meaningful, so it's not as simple as it may sound, really...

Well, even despite it all, Yukari is a pretty compelling character, as such cospirators usually are. It would be quite interesting to read about Merry's descent into Yukari, there's a great exploration of character to be had here. (whether they're "canonically" the same person or not)

>>17972
>>It would be quite interesting to read about Merry's descent into Yukari, there's a great exploration of character to be had here. (whether they're "canonically" the same person or not)

Yukari's backstory is fertile ground for stories, yet I haven't heard of a fanfiction nor doujin creation that covers it.
If you weave in her namesake Lafcadio Hearn's story into that narrative I think you could have something very compelling.
Perhaps she was foreign Christian too before forsaking Christ and her humanity? She could have been inspired by the real Lafcadio's story, mourning the loss of culture in the secular future, went back in time to change that future but could only manage to create a refuge for the old beings, Gensokyo, rather than snuffing the secular revolution in its cradle?

>>17974
>Perhaps she was foreign Christian too before forsaking Christ and her humanity? She could have been inspired by the real Lafcadio's story, mourning the loss of culture in the secular future, went back in time to change that future but could only manage to create a refuge for the old beings, Gensokyo, rather than snuffing the secular revolution in its cradle?
Yeah, I thin Yukari probably has an additional justification like that, sure she probably has some personal emotional justification, but given the trajectory of the outside world. If the outside world is growing to be apocalyptic due to humans over running the earth, then maybe you do something like create an experiment and put humans under different conditions to try to get a better result.

>>17972
I think Yukari if she is Maribel, is definitely tainted by a lot of loss and baggage, I've heard people say that Renko could be Chang'e as well. But I have no idea how that would happen as it has way less evidence and seems pretty far fetched.

>>17978
>I've heard people say that Renko could be Chang'e as well. But I have no idea how that would happen as it has way less evidence and seems pretty far fetched.
I don't particularly like any "Renko is [a different Touhou character]" theories, because they defeat the point of the character as I see it. Renko may be smart and imaginative, but she's really just a normal girl who had the misfortune of befriending Merry with all of Merry's strange changeable dreams, hell travels and Yakumo Yukaries. A kind of foil, I guess.

Anyway, if we are going to attempt to revive the discussion, then I'd like to talk about Alice. I've been commissioned to draw her, so, in a way, I'm actually obligated to think about her, but I like her anyway, and can articulate why, so why not.

>>17189
Yes, exactly. I agree with your read. She really is basically a dedicated doll otaku. It's probably why I like her as much as I do - we share that hobby! I've only been at it for a few years, but I'm a doll and figurine collector and customizer too. In that sense, she's instantly very easy to relate to. I also definitely see how she would be the type to appreciate the craftsmanship of any given thing first and foremost - a dedicated craftsman like her would naturally care about the skill, the technique, the method, the process through and through, the fine details, the deliberation. Alice is a hands-on aesthete. And, you know, as refined and passionate as it may seem, it's actually a bit limiting! Because of this tendency, I'd say she would also be someone who naturally fixates on small details and technicalities too much, which is why I believe her ability to put concepts together to form a bigger picture or articulate what that bigger picture is might suffer. It's not anything immediately apparent, she's obviously not an airhead or an idiot, and certainly doesn't look like one from the outside - she knows how to appear intelligent, clearly, and has enough restraint to do it. I just believe that she would think in different, more narrow and static terms. Well, at least that's what being too used to such thinking patterns leads to, from what I know.
She's not the social type either, appearing to be quite self-sufficient, easily able to entertain herself when alone, usually with her beloved craft. It's an admirable trait, isn't it? A healthy, non-maladaptive kind of introversion. She seems to be quite cold too, not rude or unpleasant, quite polite, but distant. I don't like it when she's portrayed as secretly lonely and longing for company, though. Maybe some find it cute in a tsundere kind of way, but I believe she genuinely enjoys solitude, or maybe doesn't even view it as such, being surrounded by dolls and all. She doesn't strike me as someone to put on a tough air to hide behind either. She cares about her appearance, but that's different from trying to project an image. It seems to be an extension of her appreciation for aesthetics more than anything.

Speaking of her appearance, even if I'm not crazy about it or anything, her outfit is pretty good. Fanworks don't even really butcher it all that much, and it's kind of hard to butcher, as it's pretty balanced even if you simplify it or do some details differently. The shape of her dress gives her an elegant and slender silhouette, and the lace trims are pleasantly sharp. That triangular lace shape gives skirts and ribbons a special kind of edge, it feels very good to look at. The black fasteners on her chest give her an orderly feel and serve as nice small contrasting accents on main fabric of the dress. Of course, I'm the boots she was given in the fighting games are quite stylish too. Anything even remotely oldschool lolita-like looks great with boots. (But her clothes are not lolita - the skirt's shape and length do not fit the style. It's just the atmosphere she gives off.)
Her th5 version isn't bad either, I like it as well. It's not a particularly inspired design, but it's nice for what it is, and it is a good kind of preamble to her later "adult" design, in retrospect. It also looks fitting for a child character, and she is most likely intended to be a child in th5.

So, really, it's natural to interpret her th5 appearance as her child version and draw all sorts of conclusions from that. I think of it this way too. Stemming from that, my interpretation isn't exactly original: I believe her to be a Makai resident by nature - though she tells people like Akyuu she is just a youkai magician to avoid being pestered about it. While these species are functionally similar, a Makai person is an artificial construct made by Shinki. Alice is her best work so far, she is very much like a living thing. Because she was raised as Shinki's child, the doll manipulation magic is actually a weaker version of her creator's ability to create these magical automatons and worlds for them to inhabit. Of course, she wasn't taught nearly enough to create a whole neo-Makai of her own, but she can approach Shinki's power with rigorous study. Of course, a construct like her may only really approach it - at least that's what she believes. Her dream for now is to make an autonomous, "living" doll. It is interesting to think about, a doll who loves to make other dolls. Well, a kind of doll, I guess. Not really.
Of course, her and Shinki's or even Sariel's approaches to the craft are different, but going into getail about them would be off-topic.

Anyway, Alice may not be my absolute favourite character, but she is quite loveable. That oldschool gothic lolita hobby märchen chic feel she has is great, and it's actually more subtle than what such characters usually have - it's often quite farcical, I don't usually like it. Of course, the dolls are cute too.

>>17988

Very interesting take on Alice's backstory. Touhou's openness of interpretation is one of its most excellent qualities.
The only other take on her backstory I've read was from Takerfoxx's Imperfect Metamorphosis, which took Akyuu's word as fact that she was a youkai magician. Alice had magician-hood forced upon her by her mother as a gift (which she didn't want) and was a normal human before that. I don't remember all the details because I stopped reading the fic a long time ago, too much EDGE and not enough point.

Bringing up the character's namesake again, what do you 'get' from it? Theres a lot of cultural information contained within it, for lack of a better word. Japanese culture as a whole has a strange fixation upon "Alice in Wonderland" which apparently goes back as far as the last century.

Something that could be extrapolated from the name could be Shinki and Alice's relationship, which we don't really have a lot of official material to go off of.. The author Lewis Carrol was obsessed with the real life Alice, the inspiration for the books, to a... very disturbing extent.

So how could this apply to Alice and Shinki's relationship in fanworks? Is Alice actually Shinki's child/creation or some random kid who 'fell down the rabbit hole'? Is Shinki a overbearing but good mother/stepmother/creator or an obsessed creep (to the point that Alice ran away from Makai to get away from her)?

>>17989
>Touhou's openness of interpretation is one of its most excellent qualities.
Yes, that's the point, isn't it? It works very well as a sandbox.

>Bringing up the character's namesake again, what do you 'get' from it?
It's quite simple, really. In th5, Makai is her Wonderland. In Windows games, Gensokyo is her Wonderland.
Though Makai is more of a Wonderland, I believe it's generally more dreamlike, at least to an outsider. But she is more of an outsider to Gensokyo, even if it's not a proper wonder-land.

>So how could this apply to Alice and Shinki's relationship in fanworks? Is Alice actually Shinki's child/creation or some random kid who 'fell down the rabbit hole'? Is Shinki a overbearing but good mother/stepmother/creator or an obsessed creep (to the point that Alice ran away from Makai to get away from her)?
I do like this idea of obsessive Shinki, it's thematically fitting for the whole Alice allegory. But it doesn't fit my image of her at all, as to me, from her dialogue in th5, she appears to be an extremely careless and lighthearted person. Really, it's the other extreme, I believe.
By the way, I don't have a concrete idea of how exactly Alice left Makai, I'm still considering which option would make my interpretation more coherent...

(I'm pretty sure your picrel is Cookie fanart or something, but still, Alice looks cool with revolvers)

>>17971
>Reimu simply enforces this ideology without ever reflecting on it or questioning it
I wonder about that. Though I'm desperately trying to find the page of it to confirm whether it was in a printwork or fanwork (pretty sure it was WaHH?), I remember seeing it stated that Reimu's actual desire is peace. Also, spoilers for CDS: Were she executing the ideology of Gensokyo and Yukari's orders without question, I think she would've exterminated Mizuchi without much problem.
>Another side of her is that she's essentially to me a youkai who desperately tries to look youkai-like. It's, of course, articles by Aya and Akyuu describing her in what light she needs (and touhou fans buy into it!), but also her general behaviour. I see what >>17523 and >>17525 describe as desire and self-inflicted duty to look mysterious, distant and whimsical, to maintain airs of a youkai sage - even if she feels lonely as a result.
Yukari's character is also interesting and it contrasts well with Ran who is straightforward (depending on whether it gets to her turn in the other thread I might just talk about her here). Yukari shows you only what she wants you to see and how to perceive her, as you and others mentioned, but there is one written work I know of that is from her perspective when she's not "working" and it recontextualizes her character, for the better I think. A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years; it has a lot of her internal monologue and it's Yukari being herself without all of the airs she puts up. Yakumo Yukari the Arch-Youkai Sage of Gensokyo is a character fabricated by Yukari. The mask only comes off when she's with people she absolutely trusts, her best friend Yuyuko and Reimu who she dotes on. This is that side of her laid out bare, this is what she tries to cover up with the cool and mysterious sage appearance.
>>17989
>So how could this apply to Alice and Shinki's relationship in fanworks? Is Alice actually Shinki's child/creation or some random kid who 'fell down the rabbit hole'? Is Shinki a overbearing but good mother/stepmother/creator or an obsessed creep (to the point that Alice ran away from Makai to get away from her)?
I am partial to the fanon that Alice is Shinki's daughter/creation. Could go either way. Were she real flesh and blood, doing something like an immaculate conception plays into some of the Christian religious themes of Shinki and PC-98. Were she a literal creation then you play into the fairy tale side of Alice and draw parallels with Pinocchio. Either way, I think Shinki fits the overbearing mother. To me, Alice feels like Shinki's first "real" creation and everything else is just set dressing to play God to without much care, her relationship with Alice is far more intimate than that of the other Makai denizens. You could start with the doting parent turned obsessive which leads to Alice running away, and certainly there's humor in those stories, but I think Alice left because she had free will and a desire to experience things. Alice wanted to walk on her own feet. To draw on Christian theming once again, Alice left the 'garden', but instead of exile it's because she was ready to fly the nest for better or worse.