[Return]
Archived Thread

File 131950439918.jpg - (147.55KB , 1000x700 , reisen39.jpg ) [iqdb]
8105 No. 8105
New to this board
New to Touhou
But I have this story in my head and won't get unstuck so I'll need clarifications on few things. I will assume you guys are nicer than /jp/. Feel free to answer only one question or more, I don't mind.
This is a story that stars Mokou, Reisen, Sanae, and Youmu

1. What are the 4 heroines' personalities? 5 words to describe them each would help

2. What would happen to Youmu if Yuyuko suddenly disappeared?

3. If Ran disappeared or died could Yukari just make a new shikigami?

4. Do dead souls from our world drift into Gensoukyo? If so, does Komachi have to bring them over, or do they naturally flow over?

5. What is the extent of Reimu's powers? For example, she can perform exorcisms and stuff, but can she make charms of warding and whatnot?

6. I heard most Gensokyo residents have a distaste for humans in general, which of the 4 heroines' suffers from this?

That's all the questions that pop into my mind at the moment, I may have more later but thanks for your help

No. 8107
First off,
>I will assume you guys are nicer than /jp/
There is a core population of old /jp/ users here and plenty of dicks but several orders of magnitude less spam. Personally I feel that spoonfeeding is a bad thing, especially when it's easy to look things up.

1. Play the games. Failing that read the dialog on the touhou wiki. Failing that read their pages on the touhou wiki and ideally the interviews in Bohmemian Archive in Red and PMiSS. There's also other official appearances such as manga and short novels for some of them.

2. Now this is something you have to think of and decide, isn't it?

3. See above.

4. See PoFV.

5. Character profiles.

6. Idem.

There's plenty that's up to your own interpretation and can be debated but shouldn't be answered for you if you truly know nothing.

...hopefully I'm not replying to a troll or copy pasta.
No. 8108
1. If you have to ask a board with hundreds upon hundreds of different stories about touhou or you just cant read the wiki then you should stop posting and not even attempt a story.

2. Figure it out yourself, use your own fanon, whatever. Just make sure its not stupid.

3. Shikigamis arent made, and Ran cant exactly disappear as a Shikigamis bond is that akin to a God's and its only Subject: The God can always sense the Subject and viceversa.

4. See PoFV

5. She's a shrine maiden. Google 'shrine maiden' or 'miko' for just a simple summary of what Reimu can more then likely do.

6. You heard this from where? Play the games, read the wiki, Read some fanon or any of the stories on here.

You arent asking for any sort of research help because you want us to tell you what it is you want to know. Tell you what, Try actually figuring some of these insanely easy things out yourself and then ask Anon for help. Sound good?
No. 8109
>>8107
>>8108
First off, let me say thanks for an attempt to answer my questions

Now, I only came here because the wiki was too vague, and I wanted specifics for the questions I asked.
The reasons I asked were either because
1) I wanted to know if something was pre-established so I don't break canon
2) I don't have time to play the damn games

I'm sorry I don't have time to look up every damn thing in every part of the internet, if I did I wouldn't come here to begin with. I just wanted some quick questions answered and be on my way with it.
No. 8111
>>8109
>the wiki was too vague
The official materials available there are, along with the games, the only sources of canon.

If you don't have the drive to make time to research something that interests you then you should not bother. Loads of relevant information is at your fingertips and easy to sort through. Don't expect the answers to everything if you won't even bother with the basics.
No. 8112
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bohemian_Archive_in_Japanese_Red

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Grimoire_of_Marisa

In that order. Then try the games; I suggest Imperishable Night. Try to avoid PC98 games, they're not very popular character wise (there are exceptions), and have been practically written out of continuity. Keep in mind that a lot of the canon information is vague and ambiguous completely on purpose. You're not likely to find a lot of detail, either. Part of being an author is choosing how to interpret the information. Is PMiSS just akyuu overblowing the youkai threat, or is she just touching upon the daily terror that the humans live in? Remilia, as another example, (spoilers for one of the games following) is she just an overly entitled, childish vampire who can't take losing, or is she a bored lunatic looking for someone to match her? Reisen: Hellish yandere PTSD timebomb just waiting to go off, or loving, hurt gentle bunny who ran away from the violence? The list goes on. Lots of fan personalities, lots of fanon crap.

Fans disagree on plenty of things, don't be afraid to take a side. Just don't take a retarded side. Like neko scarlet. Look up the materials, the fanworks, the epic stories. Choose what you want your gensokyo to be like.



Also if you come onto IRC we can answer questions. Just don't ask obvious questions that can be answered by the wiki.
No. 8113
>>8112
To add onto that, Try reading some really good stories that keep characters in character. A personal favorite of mine is Imperfect Metamorphosis: The actions done by the characters in there is the kind of stuff you would be expecting them to do in the games although in some cases some really insane bullshit you cant believe happens, but trust me, when you get to the end of that arc you'll know what I mean. Other then that, I'd stay away from stories that involve OC's, bad writing, or really anything involving a Mary Sue (see: Fragmentation of Memories with the godmod/pimp protag)

Other then that, Be sure to use the characters how you want: Just dont make tsundere alice or some other retarded bullshit like that.
No. 8115
>>8112 (adding on)
Though the advantage of a loose characterization of the PC-98 era is that a writer has a lot of room to play with. Though naturally, most hacks only care about butchering popular characters for their own ends.

ZUN's vagueness allows for much variation while still respecting canon.

>>8113
Was reading Fragment of Memories that hard that you had to half-ass and assume things? FoM is one of the top stories here, and where romance is not much of an issue.

Now Archetype of Self in /shrine/? Your complains would be more on the mark. There are two things many folks can't deny: Wade was such a Gary Stu and that it was FUN thinking of creative ways to win fights.


And OP, lurk for a good long time so you don't make any terrible mistakes.
No. 8116
>>8115
Whoops, I mixed the two, My bad.
No. 8118
>I will assume you guys are nicer than /jp/
Well, if you respect the rules, we are. And not using any nickname is already giving you points.

Now, now, the other Anonymous gave you good hints. But you can still write a good story while creating your own characters. For example, usually Reimu is lazy, and don't care for anything else than her and her shrine. And yet, Memoria in Discord countains a rude Reimu, walking around and punching Mokou for some obscures reasons.
In "Do the Right Thing", Koishi is shown as an innocent girls making sexual jokes every time she's on screen. In "Friction About Ground", she's an unstable and half-homicidal maniac.

Long story short: the canon is too vague for you to be totally accurate. Only ZUN can. You can still try to have characters behaving properly, but when you read the games' dialogues, you'll understand that they don't really care. Reimu canonically goes around asking questions aloud and beating people answering those questions, while Marisa and Alice are just speaking about who's cooler.
Don't try to stick to canon, just have fun with your story, without ruining the characters.
No. 8121
>>8118
The normal game dialogue isn't exactly the most accurate measure of a character as it shows them in a agitated state. The various mangas and endings show them in a more relaxed state.

http://touhouendings.wikkii.com/wiki/Main_Page

The endings in particular offer surprising insight on to many things, such as Sanae's real personality before UFO, Sakuya being on such friendly terms with Marisa that she offers snacks and hides her from Patchouli, etc.

There's also the three fairies manga, which show many things, of a more carefree nature compared to the games, including a case of team 9 grouping up, Momiji with wolf ears and...

Reimu being nice.
No. 8122
>>8121
>Sakuya being on such friendly terms with Marisa that she offers snacks and hides her from Patchouli
I'm really ashamed I missed that one.
Every stories on hold, I'm going for a pilgrimage. Finishing every touhou game.
No. 8127
>>8122
Also Marisa's raids aren't so volient but rather her coming by like she owns the place/visiting friends, chats, takes the books then leaves with really no one thinking of stopping her due to a mix of being friendly or being awed by her confidence.
No. 8150
I'm still amazed no-one knows that Ellen has her own competing magic shop. Poor, fluffy Ellen.
No. 8153
>>8150
Thing is I'm not sure if Ellen's PoDD endings are quite canon due to the fact that well she's a cameo from one of ZUN's favorite comics. For all we know she might have wound up back home.

In short, she is not a native of Gensokyo or perhaps even that particular universe.
No. 8154
>>8153
I'm not sure if PC-98 games are quite canon as ZUN is on record saying he doesn't like thinking about them.

But who cares about canon? We like thinking about them.
No. 8156
While people pointing you toward PMiSS, the games, and such is nice and all, if you want to have any actual idea of what characters ACTUALLY act like, read things in which the characters actually have the opportunity to do so. For example:

* Three fairies manga
* Curiosities of Lotus Asia
* Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red
* Wild and Horned Hermit

CoLA is nice because it gives somewhat questionable facts that you can use to pepper your story, but it should NEVER be used as the basic of character personalities because, simply put, it contains no representation of such.

Same for the games. It contains the "facts" of the incidents, but the dialog is unreliable for use as character reference. This is because most of the dialog consists of characters basically talking smack. Think of danmaku as a game (because it is). When playing a game, you might say something out of excitement. Your friend, in turn, might try to twist your words into a counter.

The difference here is that the characters in Touhou are pretty clever, and you are not. Where you might counter with a "yeah, well your MOM __________", the girls of Gensokyo will counter with an elaborate wordplay referencing something really, really obscure. Wordplay which the other girl will GET, and proceed to counter with an even more obscure reference.

If you actually go through the games, its pretty easy to distill what they are actually trying to convey if you understand the wordplay at work, and understand that in addition to the danmaku, they are also participating in a sort of word duel. A good rule of thumb is to assume that if something a character is saying is confusing or seems like a contradiction, it is probably on purpose.
No. 8157
>>8156
Or maybe ZUN is just a senseless drunk.
No. 8160
>>8157

I might be able to agree with that point of view except for the fact that all the print works are easily understandable and pretty damn good, and even the in game dialog is really easy to understand (and sometimes pretty fucking clever) if you know what he's referencing.
No. 8162
>>8156
>>8157
It's both
No. 8167
>>8160
I found the offical mangas to be pretty boring.
No. 8169
>>8167
Then maybe Touhou isn't for you.
No. 8171
>>8169
Secondary.
No. 8176
>>8167

Thats nice, I didn't. Whether you found them boring or not is completely besides the point. They are pretty much the only official source of character interactions there is. It's fine if you like fan stuff, but not liking the print works pretty much means you don't like gensokyo. Think about that.
No. 8178
>>8176
That is the dumbest thing I've heard. I've read most of the manga twice over, but how in the world does 'if you dont like the manga YOU DONT LIKE TOUHOU END OF DISCUSSION' fit in anywhere? I dont like the games as they're hard as fuck and havent even beaten one on easy: Guess I hate touhou huh anon?
No. 8179
>>8178
Forgot my sage.
No. 8180
>>8178
Not exactly, the manga matter came up as they're a reflection of day to day life in Gensokyo, something the games do not cover. And telling people who do not like the mangas "guess you don't like touhou" prevents them from shitting out some dork age grimderp version of Gensokyo.

One can easily look up the game story and dialogue on the touhouwiki, though the translation is said to be a bit iffy in spots. And the endings have their own wiki, covering all endings but 12.3 and TD and translated all besides the PC-98 games and the two most recent games.
No. 8181
>>8154

The PC98 games are most definitely canon. That's why Makai shows up in UFO; why Yuuka and Alice are already familiar with Reimu in the Windows games; why Reimu continues a gag with Alice from MS in PCB; and most of all, that's why Reimu's EoSD profile explicitly says that the game is set shortly after MS. The only reason ZUN has stated for his avoiding the further use of PC98 characters is that it would be hard to explain why people like Mima and Genji have not shown up for a while; and even then, since he specified that Genji is chilling in the pond behind the shrine, presumably most PC98 characters are just spending their time relaxing.

As for how Yuuka and Alice managed to show up in the Windows games even though the others have not? Well, Alice showed up in TH7, and her first appearance was TH5, so there wasn't much of a time gap. Yuuka, on the other hand, is obviously ZUN's waifu if you skim through her profile from her cameo appearance in Kioh Gyoku.
No. 8182
>>8181
Or he's just a drunk bastard.
No. 8183
>>8181
Most of the PC-98 antagonists are either staying in Makai or hell or are loosely grouped folks who after the incident passed, went on to do low profile things.

Doesn't explain what happened to Mima though, the original youkai that hangs around and pesters Reimu.
No. 8184
On a totally different note, must I use the BBS code, or can I just make the text italic while I'm writing it (Open Office 'n' stuff)?
No. 8189
>>8184
You must.
No. 8239
>>8178

I shoulda replied to this a while ago. Losing your home tends to make you not care about petty internet shit. Well, at least not as much, apparently.

See, the issue isn't that you don't like Touhou because you don't like the manga. The issue is that the ONLY real representations of Gensokyo we have are the manga and the other print works. The games simply do not cover 95% of stuff that would be relevant to a story and thus are not really appropriate for reference. You know, important things such as a character's entire-fucking-characterization. Did you forget what the topic of this thread was?

This isn't elitism. This is common-fucking-sense. If you are looking to something other than the print works to get a feel for the day to day lives of the residents of Gensokyo, then you are looking at fanon, and thus isn't really relevant to this discussion.

As I said, its perfectly fine to like the fan works. Its perfectly fine to like only one piece of Touhou, even. I don't even have problems with the so-called "secondaries", because, come on, there's a lot of appeal with Touhou, and there's very few people which will like every single part of it.

But, that said, if you are going to write a story, you had damn well better be at least mostly respectful of the source material, or at least have some massive disclaimers. The last thing I want is to start reading an otherwise well written story and suddenly see the characters we love being used as "slots" for which to insert any personality the story happens to need, regardless of whether it fits.

If your story is set up in such a way that you HAVE to make Reimu a complete bitch for there to be any conflict you are doing it wrong.

PS: Don't ever use yukkuri for any reason, especially if your story is otherwise an amazing one. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, DAMMIT.
No. 8250
>>8239
bravo, good sir.
No. 8252
>>8239
... I still fail to see your point. In Inaba, Eirin is as casual as can be, yet in the games she's not, and instead an uptight bitch in the other manga who's name I forgot (silent something). Well gee, I guess there's NO PROBLEM AT ALL HERE huh?

Oh. Wait. There is. The manga is important, yes, I admit that, But is it as important to character development as the games? No, as both have their own interpretations of the characters, as seen above.

Also, Keep your bitching to /blue/, I dont like yukkuris but you dont see me threadshitting about it.
No. 8253
>>8239
Fanon is also source material. Canon is not more legitimate than fanon in any way. Both are preexisting beliefs: that's the only thing that matters.
No. 8254
>>8252
>In Inaba, Eirin is as casual as can be, yet in the games she's not, and instead an uptight bitch in the other manga who's name I forgot (silent something). Well gee, I guess there's NO PROBLEM AT ALL HERE huh?

No, there is no problem, unless you somehow make the mistake of expecting characterization in a gag manga to line up with works that are meant to be taken more seriously.

When you're doing something that's meant to be purely comedic in nature like the Inaba comics, certain elements you would find in a work that's meant to be more serious or dramatic in tone tend to get thrown out the window, while what remains can be exaggerated to ridiculous degrees for the sake of humor. It's why the Inaba strips depict the conflict between Kaguya and Mokou as being over relatively silly and trivial things like Kaguya eating Mokou's bamboo shoots rather than any of that business of Kaguya ruining Mokou's father's life and the two of them constantly trying to kill each other.

On top of that, you also can't just disregard the context in which a character is appearing. Take your Eirin example. In both the games and Silent Sinner in Blue, she's dealing with problems relating to her and Kaguya's status as wanted fugitives from the moon. In the Imperishable Night, she's in the midst of a plan to stop anyone from coming after her once and for all, only to have the heroines bust in her home to screw everything up. In SSiB, she's being framed for an insurrection on the moon while various parties are plotting an attack on her former home.

Do you really think either of those situations are conductive to being "laid back"? Especially when compared to a silly, slice-of-life story whose sole purpose is to be silly?
No. 8255
I don't think ZUN's executions match up with the ideas he's got in his head. For example, he tells us youkai are alien. Humans shouldn't be able to understand them. That's why he focuses on humans so much, apparently. But he sucks so terribly at showing us that youkai are alien that most people treat them as humans.

So yeah. Not even canon matches up with ZUN's headcanon.
No. 8256
>>8252

Like the other guy said, you are seeing the same character react to different situations. If you haven't noticed from being alive for (presumably) more than a decade or so, people react to different stimuli in different ways.

Would you expect someone to react the same way to both being chased by wolves and attending a birthday party? I should hope not. Nothing serious happens in Inaba, so no one acts serious. There was actually something serious happening in IN, so persons involved with the serious part (Eirin) acted somewhat seriously.

As for the stuff about the games being important, maybe you should actually listen this time. I will bold it for you to make it easier to remember:

The games do not have very clear characterization because 95% of the dialog is smack talk. They are being purposely confusing and trying to one up eachother with clever wordplay. This does not mean the dialog did not happen or does not pertain to their character, but it does mean that not everything they say is serious. They are PLAYING A GAME just like you.

What I'm saying isn't "Don't use information from the games". That would be stupid. What I'm saying IS: "Don't only use information from the games". The games, taken on their own, simply do not have enough information for good characterization. The print works, on the other hand, give you quite a bit. There are some holes here and there, especially for minor youkai, and by all means, fill those in as needed.

- - - - -

>>8253
>Canon is not more legitimate than fanon in any way.

Keep telling yourself that, buddy.

By definition, canon material is more legitimate. Sure, there are some neat fan interpretations of stuff, and I have seen some fan works that definitely approach or in some cases partially exceed my love of the source material. But to say that it doesn't matter at all which you use sounds like you're trying to justify something.

Lets put an example to this. I'll give you two different interpretations of the same character, and we'll see which is right.

!) Reimu Hakurei. She's a laid back shrine maiden tasked with keeping the balance of Gensokyo. She's lazy when it comes to actively improving her shrine's standing, but is dedicated when it comes to resolving incidents which threaten the balance she upholds. She is known for dealing swift punishment for youkai who step out of line, though when resolving incidents often makes a token attempt to avoid unnecessary fights. She is carefree in her dealings with both humans and youkai, treating them equally. This has made her quite popular with stronger youkai that both respect power, and have realized that they can harass her all they want as long as they don't cross the line.

2) Reimu Hakurei. She's a lazy miko that never does any work. She's extremely poor and eats grass to stay alive. Paradoxically, she constantly beats up every youkai she sees and robs them blind. She is extremely cruel and sadistic, which is (apparently) why she is friends with many of the youkai she beats up. She's a god-like human who never loses a fight, ever.

Which of these sounds like a more "legitimate" description of the character to you? Hint: One of these is based blatantly on fan-works. Lets see if you can guess which one. But that isn't even as much as I can fuck up your point. Check this out:

3) Reimu Hakurei. She's a lazy miko of the hakurei shrine, which is also a ninja dojo, so she's super awesome ninja. She's tasked with defeating the evil youkai that plague the lands at night. To do this, she transforms into MagiMiko. Using her ying yang cubes of justice, she fights alongside her adorable familiar Marisa. Twist ending: the youkai were the nice all along, but Reimu couldn't understand their crazy moonspeak. Also she can fuse with Marisa to get super laser powers. Thats integral to the plot. It, like, represents entropy or something. I haven't figured it out yet.

There. That is my fan-interpretation of Reimu. While its not the original, it is an interpretation, and every interpretation is COMPLETELY AND EQUALLY LEGITIMATE, AMIRITE?. I mean seriously, who reads Touhou stories to hear about boring old Reimu? Clearly we have to make her a magical girl, or add traits she never had to spice her up instead of just making our own damn characters, right?

Seriously though, the issue isn't that you can't use fan stuff sometimes, or that you can't tweak characters for your story. The problem is that when you "violate" canon to massive degrees, you are no longer writing Touhou. As someone pointed out earlier, you are writing fiction with "original" characters who happen to be named after Touhou characters.

The problem is expectations. People read Touhou works to read about Touhou characters. If you are making massive changes to personalities, then why are you even writing about them in the first place? How do you think people feel when they are enjoying a story you have written, then suddenly come across a character they love, who is suddenly acting incredibly out of character?

Its a horrible feeling. You finally get to see the character you like in the story, but alas, it isn't them. Its someone else, who has KILLED them, donned their silly hat, and taken their place. The worst thing is that no one in the story notices. They just keep on interacting with the doppelganger, unaware that the original is probably rotting in a ditch somewhere.
No. 8257
>>8256
I'm not reading all that.

>You finally get to see the character you like in the story, but alas, it isn't them. Its someone else, who has KILLED them, donned their silly hat, and taken their place.
Wrong. Your favorite interpretation doesn't die. It's still safe, inside your head. If you're unable to enjoy a different interpretation, that's your problem.
No. 8258
>>8256
>The games do not have very clear characterization because 95% of the dialog is smack talk.

... I fail to see your point. Cirno says something stupid when she's smacktalking, reimu speaks very confidently and yet also bored and wants to get it over with...

I really fail to see the problem here rageanon.
No. 8259
> I'm not reading all that.
Somehow, I knew you wouldn't.

>Wrong. Your favorite interpretation doesn't die. It's still safe, inside your head

What kind of wishy washy bullshit is that? I'm saying that it SUCKS to be reading an otherwise great story, and suddenly have a character you love being misrepresented to such a degree that it detracts from the story.

>... I fail to see your point. Cirno says something stupid when she's smacktalking, reimu speaks very confidently and yet also bored and wants to get it over with...

And if that is all you reference, then you are going to have some incredibly one dimensional characters.
No. 8260
>>8258

I think you missed the part where he says the games don't present enough information to give good characterization. It's not that you can't learn something about the character, but it's not nearly enough to get a good sense of who they are, as a whole.

By your own example, all you can glean from Cirno's dialogue is that she says stupid things, and thus is probably an idiot.
Granted, she is an idiot, but stupidity is not her sole defining trait, but you can't necessarily tell that from just her game dialogue.

If you're trying to write a character, and all you have to go one is "she's a fairy that freezes things and isn't very smart" you're going to have to fill in quite a few gaps to make her anything more than some one-note "DUUURRR EYE LIEK TWO FREES STUFFS DERP" caricature.
No. 8261
>>8259
Boo hoo, nobody cares how much you dislike their interpretation. Fuck off and write your own story.
No. 8262
>>8261

I would agree except that it is such a serious problem. Do you really think its okay to have most stories portray Reimu as a complete bitch? Don't you think that it is the failure of the writer if they have written someone so out of character that it is actually distracting?
No. 8264
>>8262
It's not a serious problem. People write bitch Reimu because they like bitch Reimu. Do you understand? They like her! I like her! Not as much as I like normal Reimu, but I do like her! That's why fanon exists: People like it.

I'm sorry for not reading your huge wall of text. I do intend to read it, but I have more entertaining things to read now.
No. 8265
I do agree on the "if it outright ignores canon then it stops being touhou" as well look at UsuallyDead's stuff, which is Touhou in name only practically.

As far as the games? you can't outright dismiss it but it can't be taken at full face value. Do I really need to bring up Sakuya "dying" or Mystia being "eaten"? The various mangas show the day to day personalities better. Example? In a chapter of the three fairies manga, Reimu is shown being nice to a fairy (which resembles Daiyousei closely), something unthinkable in common fanon.

Not to say fanon can't fit with canon, just not most of the popular ones (Ronely Alice, NEET Kaguya, Ice Bitch Sakuya, Uber Bitch Reimu)

The main problem with vast canon ignorance is that it may set a damning trend along with some opinion poisoning. I mean look at how long Yukari's been depicted as "Bitch that gaps folks in for shits and giggles" (and sometimes much worse).

And as a writer here, one should attempt to go deeper than overdone fanon memes that aren't good in the first place. Doing so is a step closer to making your story stand out from all the typical newbie fodder.
No. 8267
>>8265
Opinions opinions opinions opinions opinions. Why aren't you writing what I want you to write?????????

If you really want to affect how people view your favorite character, write your own fucking stories.
Show, don't tell.
Show, don't tell.
Show, don't tell.
No. 8269
>>8264

Yeah, I know some people like bitchy Reimu. It can be funny. In moderation, that is. But remember that this is a site for writing about Touhou. Don't you think at a certain point we have to step back and go "what are we really writing here"? when you do get around to reading my wall, pay special attention to the third interpretation example. Because that is how I feel every time I see "bitch Reimu".

Part of why I wrote all that is we have had a huge number of good stories die off over the years, so it is even more important now that we get an influx of stories that actually represent Touhou well. We have a lot of new people, both readers and writers. If we do not at least try to at least encourage people to do their research first, then we are going to see rapid degradation. If we're just going to only write things that are so far apart from Touhou, we might as well just become a truly general CYOA site. People already try to do this by making "crossovers" that try as hard as they can to avoid the Touhou elements of the "crossover".

I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing. We have a neat system here that would do well for things other than Touhou. But I think its important we don't lose focus.

Its not like I don't like fan stuff. I most certainly do. I have read pretty close to every translated doujin, my ipod is filled to capacity with fan-albums (along with the original soundtracks), I love the fan-games, etc etc etc. I even love some of the interpretations that are completely unlike the original characters. Heck, my favorite interpretation of Hina is a doujin that portrays her as a complete psychopath. I like her more than the original. Does that mean that she's more "legitimate" than the original? Fuck no. Its just a fan work. If I were to use that doujin to describe Hina, I would be a complete douchebag.

Those are entirely separate. They aren't "Touhou". If someone asks what Touhou is, I'm not going to give them a bunch of doujins. I'm going to show them the games, show them CoLA, and show them the fairies manga. If they like it, I'll give them more official stuff with more fanworks. If they don't, I'll give them a few select fanworks, since its not like I have anything in particular against them.

>I'm sorry for not reading your huge wall of text. I do intend to read it, but I have more entertaining things to read now.

Man, its cool. Its just my opinions yo.
No. 8270
>>8267

That is kind of elitist man. You're saying that if people cannot express their opinions in a particular way that they may or may not have the talent or time for that they have no right to express such opinion? Bullshit.

Besides, there's some things that need to be said directly, rather than through more subtle means such as stories or art. I'm a god damn artist. I know how to communicate things through art, not words. But that doesn't mean that I should draw a picture every time I would otherwise open my mouth.
No. 8271
>>8267
People do try but only the popular stuff sets trends. And don't you want to see good stories instead of half-ass WUiG knockoffs? After all the difference between those and truly notable stories is this: Effort to develop the world, characters and plot. Resorting to fanon meme is no effort at all.

>>8269
Nice to see a kindred spirit here.
No. 8272
>>8270
>But that doesn't mean that I should draw a picture every time I would otherwise open my mouth.
A world where everyone expresses themselves through art sounds fine to me. Speaking is also an art, one I'm not skilled enough in.

It's cool that people want more canon-based stuff. I like canon too. But when people start saying some fanon is no good, because they personally dislike it, I get a little angry.

>>8271
Good stories take skill to develop. Using simple characters, like the ones found in memes, gives people training wheels. Besides, you can tell lots of perfectly good stories using simple characters.
No. 8273
>>8272
>But when people start saying some fanon is no good, because they personally dislike it, I get a little angry.

That is completely understandable. I think the issue is more the sheer density of fanon here. I don't give a shit if someone portrays a character in a certain way. What is annoying is when I can't ready a single good story which not only portrays the character accurately, but also has any amount of focus on them. That is honestly disheartening.

Its even worse when you finally find that one special story.
And it dies.


Like 90% of the stories here.
No. 8274
>>8272
It's more it completely contradicts canon and causes bad opinions. That's why I don't like it.

>Good stories take skill to develop. Using simple characters, like the ones found in memes, gives people training wheels. Besides, you can tell lots of perfectly good stories using simple characters.

sounds like coddling as if one uses fanon memes then odds are they're not hard working or skilled enough to make a nice story. Some of these memes exist solely for the sake of being a lame plot device in (now) overdone shorts/doujins/etc.

Now putting a new spin on such things, that would a novel notion that most don't bother with. Most of the memorable stories in recent memory (excluding a good chunk of the classics due to lol nostalgia glasses) have developed characters beyond a one note joke.

Honestly I doubt Yukari could have effectively stolen AoS1 if she wasn't so... relatable in addition to typical Yukari traits (Mischievous, seductive, etc). My opinion of that story's Yukari: "A Yukari as strong as any other that I just want to hug? This isn't normal.... I'm very okay with this."

As for the Reimu matter, the fairy manga reveals that Yukari occasionally sneaks money into the donation box so Reimu isn't completely poor, though I'm sure she's still lacking in respect from most humans.
No. 8275
>>8256
Holy shit, ninja miko!
No. 8276
>>8275

Yeah... you want to know what the sad thing is? I wrote that as an example of what you shouldn't do. But immediately after writing it, I was like "Oh god, I actually kinda wanna see this happen". I feel like a terrible person.

That said, it IS at least a good example of really inaccurate characterization. You obviously couldn't call it Touhou at that point.
No. 8277
>>8274

This is kinda off topic, but I do find it kind of odd that they apparently use outside currency in gensokyo. Not really sure how that works.
No. 8278
>>8273
Yeah, I can understand that. But if you want people to portray a character a certain way, you need to tell people. Don't say "Don't do this." People won't understand. Don't say "Look at this, portray like this" either. People won't look at what you're pointing at. Just say how you want the character portrayed, as accurately as you possibly can. I don't mean you need to write them that way. Just... say it. Speak positively.

Happily, the best Rumia portrayal I've found isn't on this site~

>>8274
>contradicts canon
Not a problem.
>causes bad opinions
No such thing.
>coddling
Yes, I believe I should coddle new writers and try to teach them. I do a fucking terrible job of this, because I've never written anything myself, but I do try to correct the errors I can catch. Sometimes. When I feel like it.
Notice the I, there. You can do as you wish.

>>8269
man I'll get to your walls of text later i promise
>You obviously couldn't call it Touhou at that point.
You can replace parts of the whole while still calling the unreplaced parts Touhou. As long as people recognize it, it's all good. Fuck, I'm sure I could express this thought better but I'm tired of writing this post
No. 8280
>>8278
Oh but it is a problem as if you went anywhere else and tried such shit, fans would to do terrible things to you. Hell, star wars fans are still pissed over what the extended universe and the prequels did to canon.

As far as the ninja miko thing, that sounds like something fit for /others/ where more AUish things would belong. Though you'd need a nice explanation as to why Reimu's also a ninja.
No. 8282
>>8280
Yeah, they'd do terrible things alright. They'd never shut the fuck up. Please save me from their angry words, I'm drowning in them
No. 8283
>>8282

Man, you're the one that chose to participate in this thread. Don't act like anyone is holding you here. Besides, even if there are some pretty differing opinions (because, actually), this is actually a pretty productive avenue of discussion.

I've never quite understood why, if someone does not like a character in canon, they would ever chose to write about the character instead of just writing about someone else. Always seemed to me like it would piss off people who liked the character, and interrupt the suspension of disbelief for those that know the character (hopefully most the fan base you are writing for). It has also always struck me as funny that people freak out over "original characters", when changing an existing character's personality is basically the same thing.

However, its kind of interesting seeing other people's views on this, even if they don't match my own. I've wanted to do a story for a while, but I've always had a hard time coming to terms with a few aspects of the setting (difficult to establish conflict, etc). I can definitely see why people choose to change things. Touhou isn't really set up for certain kinds of story because of the fact that that the lack of major conflict is so integral to the stability of the setting.
No. 8284
>>8283
There's only one real way of introducing conflict: Basically something outside related that shakes up the status quo. That's how incidents are caused and it works for more action packed stories. Sure it may be kind of cheap, but who are we to argue if ZUN does it?

Hell, The Moriya shrine has basically started a chain of events lasting 2-3 games (UFO, Soku, TD). Even SDMLA did something similar as Belmonyous shook up the status quo so much something buried broke out.
No. 8285
>>8264
>>It's not a serious problem. People write bitch Reimu because they like bitch Reimu. Do you understand? They like her! I like her! Not as much as I like normal Reimu, but I do like her! That's why fanon exists: People like it.

Liking it is one thing, but when you have enough people liking a certain thing a certain way for long enough, you eventually reach a point where it no longer exists purely because people like it, but because they expect it. By then, it's no longer being done just because people like it, it's done because how they think it's supposed to be done. Because so-and-so did it like that because someone else did it like that, and someone else did it like that before them.

Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but that strikes me as just lazy, and amounts to the fictional character equivalent of typecasting. You have bitchy Reimu, NEET Kaguya, mad doctor Eirin, masochistic Tenshi, and so on because can't imagine them any other way. All well and good if you're happy with that, and people keep enjoying it, but from creative standpoint I find that sad when they are capable of being so much more than that.

Here you have these wonderful characters who can be portrayed in so many ways and used to tell so many stories, even while trying to stick relatively close to canon, and yet you deviate by going the same route everybody else and their brother has gone with it? Why?

I mean, sure, maybe you have some variation on the idea you want to try out. Some spin on the concept you want to explore. Groovy. But when you're working in a creative medium, and you have the chance to try and do something different, something that sets you apart from what everyone else is doing, why wouldn't you?
No. 8286
>>8283
Position and appearance. Those counts for a lot. I have a much easier time imagining a Touhou character dropkicking someone than a poorly-described original character, for example, because I've seen so much fanart. I have a much easier time accepting someone with authority over Reisen if they're named Eirin, live at Eientei, and provide medical services, even if they don't act like any Eirin I know.

Really, though, fans probably aren't going to complain too much if you make Shizuha a scheming villain or whatever, as long as she's well-written.

>>8285
>why wouldn't you?
I can think of twothree reasons.
First, don't want to do something different. Seriously. This is why in almost all cases. They like what they've seen, they want to write something like what they've seen. That's what fanfiction is all about, you know? Writing about stuff you've seen.
Second, they want to write "better" things, but they don't think they're skilled enough. Maybe they've tried and failed. Isn't it sad~
Third, it fits the story.

trying to pass people sticking close to canon as these noble heroes deviating from the beaten path is kind of hilarious. it's still a path, dude. you're no trailblazer.
No. 8287
>>8284

Yeah, I still think that plot wise, the Moriya shrine is probably the best thing to happen to the series so far. It gives a constant sense of a background plot going on without removing Zun's ability to do any kind of project he wants to. He has a mechanism for generating events without having that mechanism spin out of control. Storytelling wise, that is not an easy task to accomplish.

That's one thing about Touhou that is hard to replicate. In most settings you might have this interesting villain, but at the end of the day, they are a villain. You're either going to kill them off, thus losing the character, or you are going to pull a Batman and have a constant re-occurring villain that you have to start wondering why the hell they don't just kill already. Its hard to have your cake and eat it too.

Though, I still think that Zun probably should have defanged Remilia a little less than he did. He definitely had the potential for several incidents out of her without having her cause so much trouble that people would just outright kill her. SDM cast was the best cast. What I wouldn't give for another SDM related incident. Heck, its probably not too late for that. It wouldn't be too hard for the SDM to get involved with the current plot going on. Afterall, Remilia is FROM the modern industrial world. She probably knows the kind of world the Moriya gods are trying to build. What her opinion would be of it? Who knows.
No. 8288
>>8286

I don't know about that. One of the biggest problems with SDM related stories is that they tend to make Remilia a villain. The problem is that we all know that she isn't a villain. This is what killed ASSM's story. We were expected to suspect Remilia, but everything we knew about the character told us that she's not really evil.

Even if we see her doing absolutely horrible things in a story, its going to be hard for us to act appropriately because we're going to be biased by what we know. It causes a loss of suspension of disbelief, and in some cases makes anon cease sympathizing with the protagonist and start feeling for Remilia. Probably partly because from our reasoning there "must" be something going on behind the scenes. She "has" to have someone controlling her somehow. That , and when we realize that "no, the author just made her evil", we sympathize with her because "damn, the author completely fucked her over".

Isn't it sad Remi?
No. 8289
>>8287
>Remilia stuff
Yessss. I want to read about your Remilia. Go on, answer those questions, no one is going to answer them for you.
No. 8290
>>8286
You assume they try harder, they don't. And what >>8285 says is true as some people consider those fanon memes fact due to how wider known fan material is compared to canon material.

>>8287
Honestly, while she may like ACTING like villain, but her true nature is more someone mischevious/childish.

As far as the villain matter? Well when a story is all said and done, the villain is usually dead or otherwise dealt with. Most folks don't try to do long timeline, preferring to do multiple runs as to have different routes.

>>8288
Oh yeah Evil/Villain remilia, a rather popular meme only second to "Charisma Break" Remilia.
No. 8291
>>8288
If the writer warned you to leave your existing beliefs at the door, he'd be biasing your beliefs in the other direction. There's no way to win this.

That said, I've never read the story, but beliefs exist to be changed. They're supposed to reflect reality. Apparently, you were given ample evidence to update your beliefs with. You should have seen it coming.
No. 8293
>>8291

Yeah, no. Read the story before you make judgments. The biggest criticism of the story was that there wasn't enough evidence. If it had been an original character, we might have had an even enough ground to have suspicions , but most involved were completely caught off guard by what was (from their perspective) a jarring development.

Besides, even if that was the case, it is still the writer's responsibility to communicate things clearly, especially if the plot hinges on that understanding. Something which is even easier than normal wish an interactive story where you can, while writing the story, receive feedback if something is coming across or not and make corrections.

Something similar happened with A Flea in the Dog House. In that case we were directly told it would be a non serious slice of life. Apparently going into a story like that we were supposed to realize that Remilia was evil all along, and in fact the story was going to be anything but light hearted in it's final act.

Again, this is something we might have seen coming, or not been jarred by so much if it weren't the fact that we know Remilia is not evil.

Also, I would rather an author tell me to leave my preconceptions at the door than to drop a bomb like that out of nowhere.
No. 8294
>>8286
>First, don't want to do something different. Seriously. This is why in almost all cases. They like what they've seen, they want to write something like what they've seen. That's what fanfiction is all about, you know? Writing about stuff you've seen.

I'm pretty sure that, no, that is not what fanfiction is about. If anything, it's about writing about stuff you haven't seen. The subject matter itself may be something you've seen and enjoy, but the actual fanfiction part of it should be anything but what you've already seen from it. Otherwise, there is no point to it.

If you read and enjoyed "Bitchy Reimu Does Bitchy Things #427", and decide you're going to write your own story and it's little more than "Bitchy Reimu Does Bitchy Things #428", why should anyone even bother with it, especially if it does nothing to add anything to the idea that wasn't seen in the 427 other stories just like it? Why wouldn't they just read any of those other ones that have already been made, especially when your entry is functionally just the same thing?

At least put some spin on the idea! "Bitchy Reimu Takes Her Meds", "Bitchy Reimu Gets Laid and Finally Chills the Fuck Out for a Little Bit", "Bitchy Reimu Suffers a Personality-Altering Head Injury", or even "Bitchy Reimu Reflects on Her Past Failed Relationships and How Her Lack of Parental Guidance Has Emotionally Crippled Her While Sitting on the Toilet"! ANYTHING but more "Bitchy Reimu is a Bitchy Bitch Because the Writer is Too Lazy to Do Anything Differently"


>Second, they want to write "better" things, but they don't think they're skilled enough. Maybe they've tried and failed. Isn't it sad~

No, it's not. It's a cop-out, and a damn poor excuse.
So what if you don't think you're skilled enough to do something? You don't get better at something by not doing it.
So what if you tried and failed? Everyone has to start somewhere, and for most people that's right at the bottom. Figure out how and why you failed, build upon that, and try again. And again. And again. However long it takes until you get better.
Get help if you need to. There's more than enough people hanging around here willing to lend a hand if you know where to look, and ask for it.

Believe me, if there's one thing this site does not need more of, it's good and genuinely entertaining writers holding themselves back on account of their own feelings of inadequacy. You Wake Up in Gensokyo, the story that started this whole thing, will never finish because the writer didn't think they could possibly measure up to all the stories that had cropped up since we moved here, among other things.


>Third, it fits the story.

That is, perhaps, the only point I can agree with you on.
Yes, a rehash of a cliche that has been done dozens of times before can fit perfectly well within the vision you have for your story. I can respect that.

Whether or not the story is better for it, or is even worth reading, on the other hand...



>trying to pass people sticking close to canon as these noble heroes deviating from the beaten path is kind of hilarious.

I am doing no such thing. I think anyone trying to stick completely to canon and not diverge in any way of their own is just as unfortunate as someone does the same with fanon. Either way, you're not bringing much that's new to the table.

If I wanted a perfect representation of the characters as they appear in-canon, guess what? I'll read the canon materials over someone attempting to imitate them and failing any day of the week. If I want to see what bizarre offshoot of the characters the fanon has produced, guess what? Same deal. I have no interest in seeing a carbon copy of a carbon copy of a carbon copy, regardless of what the original is. If I like the original, I'll stick with the original.

If I appear to be more on the side of those who favor canon, it's only because those who try to stick to it usually try to bring something unique to them into their story. Even if it's only a small spin, it's still something different.
Those who stick more with the fanon, on the other hand, feel more like they're doing what amounts to endlessly repeating a joke that has already been repeated multiple times by whatever they got the joke from.

I suppose, to me, it's like the difference between someone writing comedy that takes cues from Monty Python versus someone who just repeats the handful of quotes they liked from the Holy Grail. Both can be entertaining in their own right, at least to certain people, but unless you have either a short attention span or an absurdly high tolerance for repetition, one of those two things is going to eventually become tiresome.

But, of course, that's just my take on it.
No. 8295
>>8293
Indeed if the writer makes it clear about things such changes are easier to take. That and both ASSM and Flea are rather old stories made in darker days before the grand advent of canon knowledge and the desire to actually follow it.

Curse Foiled again isn't exactly Gensokyo as we know it, but NARH made this much clear and we know to have an open mind about things. Yet at the same time, most of the characters don't stray from their canon roots too badly.

Same goes for most of the stories in /others/ where leaving our typical beliefs at the door is a given usually.

Doesn't change the fact that Remilia is a cheap/no effort villain choice along with Yukari, Reimu, or Aya.
No. 8297
>>8293
>ASSM evil Remi was a surprise.
Pic related. Maybe my opinion could be disregarded completely, because I disagree with you and because I read it from the archives, but it was indicated multiple times, and not just from Nathaniel. Also, the scarlet mist incident wasn't exactly innocent in nature: beyond blocking out the sun, EoSD's manual states normal humans and non-youkai would only survive 30 minutes in the mist. If one doesn't consider gassing all of Gensokyo as at least a little evil, I'd hate to see what their villain would do.

But, yes. OP, try to read at least one of the manga series. If nothing else, they're enjoyable if you're feeling bored.
No. 8298
>>8297
The mist's effects seem purely bluff as there's no mention of it in the game at all and Remilia is generally shown to prefer theatrics than true acts of evil.

ASSM Remi being evil came as a surprise because she didn't seem as such at first and with the only person saying so was an Original Character, anon naturally disregarded him. It was a known flaw that in ASSM Owen tried to push forward certain OCs as more important than the main character.

Also the manual states a youkai wouldn't last much longer in the dense lake mist (Not so much the mist itself in general, but the mist at the lake)
No. 8300
>>8297

>>8297

We can agree to disagree on ASSM. Personally, I thought Nathaniel was counter productive in informing us, and any other cues could have been chalked up to "Remilia hijinks lol".

As for the Scarlet Mist incident, yeah, it was definitely worse than people realize, though (as far as we know) there were no deaths. Rather than evil, it was more like a child trying to get attention. In this case, an incredibly powerful child. Its not really evil if you don't think its going to play out badly.

[i]Not that that couldn't be just as bad, mind you, but it is a difference in intent.[/b]

Of course, pretty much every boss in the series was doing something that at first glance seems pretty benign, but when you delve deeper you realize just how serious it was. Afterall, Sakuya was a player character in TH6 not because she goes out resolving incidents. Its because she didn't want to freeze to death in the winter, and Remilia (being immune to freezing to death) just plain didn't seem to see it as a threat.

I think the only one where there was a direct deliberate threat was SA, where Utsuho was being an adorable little genocidal maniac.
No. 8301
>>8300
Honestly most of the windows incidents weren't that bad excluding PCB, SA, SWR, and perhaps EoSD. I mentioned SWR as the weather muckery messed up the crops which was referenced in UFO's story.

PoFV was an incident that would have resolved itself anyways, it's just that everyone took it as a chance to do stuff, with Reimu trying to resolve it just so people won't call her lazy.
No. 8303
>>8301

Poor Reimu, having to investigate useless things just to prove she's doing her job. She isn't portrayed as sympathetic more often.... why?
No. 8305
>>8303
Other than the obvious (people love to hate her, only read the games, lolfanon)? Dunno, it didn't help that she actually mugged a helpless youkai of her books, though one might use that as to develop her character.

There's some stories that try to have a more sympathetic Reimu, such as Restorer in Gensokyo, Ace Combat in Gensokyo (under a new writer), and that Wriggle story in /forest/ are some examples.

Reimu was also rather sympathetic in Archetype of Self's first run. Mind the Gap may have a rather sympathetic Reimu, though it may be a while before we see her again. Yeah it's an /at/ story but it has a decent amount of plot.
No. 8306
Yeah, From looking at my between the gap of my last post and the bottom of the page... Can someone clean up all this thread-shitting so that we can get back to the point?
No. 8307
>>8306
There wasn't too much shitting to honest. Honestly I think the OP got their question answered so it's basically a discussion thread.
No. 8308
>>8306

Yes, because you should control where the discussion goes.

Jackass.
No. 8309
>>8294
>There's more than enough people hanging around here willing to lend a hand if you know where to look, and ask for it.

Oh, you mean the IRC?
No. 8311
>>8308
Hey, A question's a question, not a demand.
No. 8312
>>8305
She mugged her because she thought the youkai had stolen them in the first place, so really, she's more guilty of (somewhat justified) prejudice than asshattery in that particular instance.
No. 8314
there is also a wonderful thread on tvtroups discussing the touhous that you might want to look into. Can't remember the link off the top of my head but you might want to look into it.
No. 8315
>>8314
>tvtroups
No. 8317
You know, it's come to my attention that the latest "villain" in fanon is no other than Koishi. Sure it's been an occasional thing at times on this site in the past but with Koishi's Heart-Throbbing Adventures, such a fanon thing may take off with such force that it'd rival "Lonely Alice" and "NEET Kaguya"

Problem is that there's not much material at all on Koishi, with only her game dialogue and maybe a couple of small manga appearances.
No. 8318
>>8317
Well, people see Koishi as the second Flandre so...
No. 8319
>>8318
Even then Flandre's not that malicious, dangerous sure, but not particularly malicious.

I've looked into the SA extra dialogue and what I'm seeing is a rather kooky girl who sometimes says harsh things without realizing their meaning, most of them seemingly learned from Satori of all people.

I also learned that a Buddhist would be impressed with her general ability and didn't some Buddhists appear somewhat recently?
No. 8323
Time to defend myself against old posts. I'm probably going to end up repeating stuff I said earlier in the thread, but whatever. I'll call it like I see it.

>>8256
>By definition, canon is more legitimate
I disagree. The strongest belief is the most legitimate belief, regardless of the source. When I say strong, I mean... ...(I am thinking, that is why I put an ellipsis here) Apparently, I mean two things. What you want to be true (your desires. in this case, you want canon to be true) and what you think is going to be true (the belief with the greatest predictive power). These two things are not always going to match up, sadly.
>But to say that it doesn't matter at all which you use
I didn't say that. Obviously, you want to stick to common interpretations as much as possible. That's what puts the fan in fanfiction.

>canon and fanon characterization examples
hahahaa what. are you >>8254
please be >>8254
>No, there is no problem, unless you somehow make the mistake of expecting characterization in a gag manga to line up with works that are meant to be taken more seriously.

>The problem is expectations.
This is the problem! But, fanon interpretations, COMMONLY BELIEVED ONES (this is what fanon is, it is commonly believed shit (or shit that asserts the truth of a specific fan work, words have more than one meaning, deal with it), fanon does not mean whatever random bullshit you pulled out of your ass, please stop using the word incorrectly everyone thanks), are ALSO expected! Thus, the name "Reimu" has more than one referent. If someone doesn't specify which Reimu they're talking about, the strongest (read: MOST PREDICTABLE) belief wins (tempered by context, of course). And, again, canon is not always the strongest belief. Readers do not always expect (or desire!) canon and artists do not always desire canon.

It sucks that what you want isn't being written. I've already responded to this, but I firmly believe that the proper thing to do about this is advocate your beliefs. I'm trying to advocate my beliefs with this post. Poorly, but at least I'm trying.

That ninja thing reminded me of this.
>Dolphin Rider Koishi ยป reviews
>After her sister vanished, Koishi Komeiji's life fell apart. Now, as she's dragged into a war hidden from the general public, can she save herself as well as the world? Modern Day AU, OC, Magical Girl
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7082391/1/Dolphin_Rider_Koishi
No, I haven't read it. No, I'm not going to. Fanfiction.net is way more... original than THP, from what I can tell by reading the summaries. Their problem doesn't seem to be an inability to innovate. Maybe they're chock full of bitch Reimu and pad Sakuya jokes, but I don't think they are.

Welp, that's one post down. Reading this over (for like the third time), it looks like a pile of shit. Oh well. Hopefully I didn't come off as an asshole.
No. 8326
>Those are entirely separate. They aren't "Touhou". If someone asks what Touhou is, I'm not going to give them a bunch of doujins. I'm going to show them the games, show them CoLA, and show them the fairies manga. If they like it, I'll give them more official stuff with more fanworks. If they don't, I'll give them a few select fanworks, since its not like I have anything in particular against them.
I'd do the same thing as you, but I'd probably toss in the coolest fanart I can find while directing them to the games etc.
But I do think fan works are part of Touhou. They're a massive, massive part of Touhou. So massive that pretending they don't exist, that they don't bias my perceptions of the characters in any way, is unthinkable.

I spend at least a minute every day looking at Touhou fanart, so yeah. It's a major part of my life.
No. 8327
>>8323
What are your beliefs then? That folks can shit all over canon because it's more popular?

Honestly if you do not like canon then you do not like Touhou as your precious fanon often outright ignores canons for various agendas. Not to mention there's a sizable chunk who think fanon IS canon without knowing better as they perpetuate terrible fanon memes.

Fanfiction.net's problem is a general lack of ability and creativity for the most part.

One may suppose it's a greater challenge writing to consider canon fully and not to do anything that would severely contradict that.
No. 8328
My opinion is that you MUST base "your" touhou on the canon. For example, I think that Eirin is a cruel and arrogant lunarian.
Why? Because she tries medicines on rabbits, and do not receives that much money for helping humans.

But you can imagine that she's actually kind, and that she tries those medicines on rabbits instead of trying them on human.

Fanon is just your interpretation of canon. If you deliberaly ignore canon facts, then your story will be bad.
No. 8329
>>8294
I agree with every single thing you typed. All of it. There is not a single point of disagreement here.

But... well. People should know their limits. Large, complex projects are not for beginners of any discipline, because you probably won't finish, it's harder to tell where you fucked up, and you're less likely to get feedback.

I wanted to add something about how generic some fanart is... but looking at my collection, I'm having a really difficult time finding a suitably bland Rumia. Hooray?
No. 8330
>>8323
>The strongest belief is the most legitimate belief, regardless of the source.

Once upon a time, the strongest and most commonly-held belief held by most people was that the Earth was flat, you would fall off the edge if you went too far, and the sun revolved around it.

By your reasoning, that belief was more legitimate than the crazy notion that the Earth was actually round, you couldn't possibly fall off the edge of it because there was no edge to fall off of to begin with, and it revolved around the sun along with a number of other planets. Perhaps in those days, it was the most legitimate belief. That does not, however, change the fact that such a belief was still wrong.

You and everyone else are free to believe as they wish, but when you have a means of knowing what something or someone is or is not like, and that belief contradicts that, you cannot expect me to accept your belief as even equally legitimate, let alone more legitimate, because it's not.
No. 8331
>>8327
>That folks can shit all over canon because it's more popular?
Yep. That is exactly what I believe because that is exactly what is happening. ZUN doesn't give a shit about protecting your precious canon from the terrible fanon memes. Quite the opposite, really.
>don't like Touhou
Nope. Fan works are part of Touhou. And I like canon just fine, thanks.

>>8330
We're talking about fiction. There is no such thing as objective truth when talking about fiction. It's lies. By definition, fiction is lies. Fabrications. Falsehoods. Just because someone lied first about something, do not expect me to take their lie as truth. Truth is verifiable. Fiction is not.

But hey, that's just my take on it. You're free to treat canon as holy writ all you want.
No. 8332
>>8294
>If I appear to be more on the side of those who favor canon, it's only because those who try to stick to it usually try to bring something unique to them into their story.

Indeed, considering canon doesn't mean sticking to it perfectly, but rather using whatever alterations within the boundaries, which are rather generous in some ways, especially for PC-98 characters.

Not sure how I missed this post earlier.

>You Wake Up in Gensokyo, the story that started this whole thing, will never finish because the writer didn't think they could possibly measure up to all the stories that had cropped up since we moved here, among other things.

Too bad as I'm sure people would love to see how it ends and I'm sure it'd be better than all the wannabes trying to copy it or whoever the popular writer is.

Though I'm not in the habit of believing "So and So did This so well, so no one could ever hope to outdo them", but rather "So they did that well? I'm going to try my best at it to see what happens" as the former only leads to stagnation.

>>8329
Too bad reputations are established on those early projects, which affect interest in later works. And generic type stories won't get much interest here in the first place as they've been done to death.
No. 8333
>>8331
Technically, we're talking about fiction based on fiction. Lies based on lies.

Or, in the case of fiction based on the fanon interpretations, lies based on lies based on lies.

I won't even get into how even ZUN's fiction is, itself, based on something else.

Even if fanfiction and the original works they are based upon are all equal in the sense that they are about things that don't exist, the fact that fanfiction is based on upon an existing work means there must be something of that work to base something on. Something that, for the purposes of that fiction, is regarded as true.

Take the story of Jack and the Beanstalk, for example. You probably know how it goes, right? Jack gets some magic beans, climbs the beanstalk the sprouts from it, loots a ogre's house, yadda yadda yadda.

Obviously, none of it is actually real. Ogres don't live in the sky, beans don't sprout into giant stalks that allow you to reach the clouds, and so on. None of it is real, but if you were to try to base your own story on it, you have to maintain certain elements of it. Those elements have to be, for all intents and purposes, held as true in the story. Otherwise, there is no point in basing your own story on it.

When you are writing about your own characters, anything goes in defining their personalities, but when you're writing about someone else's characters, their personalities are already laid out. There may be room for interpretation and taking liberties, especially in this particular fiction, but you can't just disregard what has been established simply because it doesn't jive with what you want to do with it.

A character is more than just a name, an appearance, and a job description. It's a personality. It's a set of likes, dislikes, preferences, habits, and all sorts of fun stuff that makes a person who they are. Just because they don't really exist doesn't make those traits any less true for that character.

Take Reimu out of her shrine maiden getup, put her to work doing something other than youkai extermination and incident resolution, and there should still be something that serves as a baseline for what makes that character Reimu. There must be something of her as a character that must be held as "true", regardless of what the general consensus is among fans. If not, then what point is there in even regarding her as a character, let alone one worth telling stories about?
No. 8334
The problem with trying to say fanworks are just as "valid" as original works is what you use that "validity" for. Why exactly do you think that you need to claim fanworks are "valid"? The only practical use for claiming fanworks are "valid" would be to then use information from them to prove something about a character.

However, this is impossible. It is impossible because of the very nature of fanworks. They are, by their very nature, contradictory. And as we all should know, you cannot use contradictory information as evidence for something.

Hear me out on this:

Say someone writes a story. In that story, the writer has a certain event happen. Now, say this work got popular, and you decide to create a fanwork. However, while attempting to create the fanwork, you decide that you don't want that certain event to occur. Perhaps it was distracting, or perhaps it introduced an element you did not like. The why is entirely irrelevant.

There are now two versions of the story. In one the event happens. In one it doesn't. Now, say another author sees both your work and the original. They decide they want to make a fanwork as well, basing much of their work on yours. However, they decide they did not like the an element of your version of the story, and change it.

Now we have three separate versions of the story, which due to contradictory elements, are now completely incompatible. Now imagine, like Touhou, that this scenario repeats itself literally thousands and thousands of times.

Now we have a situation where there are several thousand fanworks, each of which contradicts nearly every other one. In this sea of contradiction, which of these works would be the one which you would use to create a description of a character?

The answer is simple: The original.

The original is the only constant. Attempting to describe a character with fanon would end up with a hundred versions of the character which would be impossible to resolve.

If, as some have claimed, all versions of the story are equally valid, then creating a description of a character would be impossible. As soon as someone makes a completely whacked out version of the character, everything is up in the air. My "Magical Ninja Girl Reimu" is suddenly just as valid as every other interpretation.

Does that sound workable to you?

Rather, we should consider the original to be the only one we can point to and say "this is truth". It doesnt mean that like the thousands before us we cannot borrow elements or alter traits. We can. But what we end up creating isn't truth. What we create will not change who a character is. Rather, we would be creating a "new" character, which has absolutely no bearing on other works.

The difference between fanworks and canon works is: When additions happen to canon, they are reflected in fanon. They are taken as truth, something which fan creators must deal with. If Zun introduces a new cast, fan authors must decide if they are going to include them or not. If another fan author creates new characters, no such quandary exists. You simply ignore it, because another fan's interpretation simply isn't a valid factor to your creation.

The original is.
No. 8335
>>8334
somethings they actually take additions seriously, sometimes they turn them into one note gag characters. But I haven't seen such things come up too often as of late as compared to the past. Sure there's one or two fanon meme renditions, but nothing on par with the infamous ones save for Mind Rapist Koishi.
No. 8340
>>8333
>you can't just disregard what has been established simply because it doesn't jive with what you want to do with it.
I agree! But fanon has been established. You know exactly what I'm talking about when I say NEET Kaguya, to your distaste.

>A character is more than just a name, an appearance, and a job description.
Right. This is why I consider fan interpretations separate characters. Are they still Touhou? Well... do most people consider them Touhou? Yes? Alright then. Are they canon? No. Absolutely not. But they're still Touhou.

>There must be something of her as a character that must be held as "true", regardless of what the general consensus is among fans.
People need to recognize the character somehow. And how do you intend to accomplish this, if not obeying the general consensus? You could default to canon, I suppose, if, by some miracle, canon is not within the general consensus. It probably is.

>>8334
>What we create will not change who a character is. Rather, we would be creating a "new" character, which has absolutely no bearing on other works.
This is wrong. Of course people draw inspiration from fan works! What planet are you from, where this isn't the case?

The difference between canon and fan works is the almost omnipresent respect fans have for canon. It derives its authority, such as it is, from that respect. It earned that respect through merit. It did not gain that respect because it was the "original.
No. 8341
>>8340
That's the problem as what often happens is that people end up perpetuating the shitty fanon memes. The only logical way to combat this is to use characters with truer canon roots and hope people perpetuate them instead.

Back in the old days canon was ignored as it wasn't easily available (even if it was it was untranslated) Now that's not even an excuse to ignore it as it's at the touhouwiki just waiting to be read.

What's been revealed basically reveals some fanon memes as completely unrelated to canon while confirming others (Wolf-eared momiji, team 9)

In other fanons blatantly writing say Luke Skywalker in name and appearance only while having a completely different personality in him would get you shit from the savvy fans.
No. 8342
>This is wrong. Of course people draw inspiration from fan works! What planet are you from, where this isn't the case?

Did... did you even read my post? Of course people draw inspiration from fan works. That is not what this discussion is about. I said that, in the context of trying to explain to someone who a character is, you should NOT use canon. IF you are have a discussion about Touhou, and someone asks you what Yukari's past is, the ONLY valid answer should be:

"Well, we don't really know. There are some hints here and there, but nothing really concrete. Oh, but there's this doujin here ________ and this one here _________ that have interesting interpretations. Oh, and here's my personal theories"

If you were to answer by describing the events of that Yukari vs Ran doujin without mentioning the fact that it is, you know, a fucking doujin, then you are an asshole.

- - -
The below doesn't really pertain specifically to you, I think.

As for actually writing stories here, people are free to go with whatever interpretation they want. However, with the sheer prevalence of interpretations that in no way resemble the character, I have to wonder why the fuck those people are even writing the character at all.

Think of it this way:

You decided to write an Eientei story. However, you're having a difficult time taking these quirky but otherwise well adjusted characters and breathing life into them. You, being an amateur writer, see this as the characters being boring, so you decide to go with some meme personalities.

This is because it is easy. Why bother actually writing a three dimensional character when you can just make Eirin a mad scientist that does horrible things and has no moral compass at all? Afterall, if she's doing horrible things all the time, people will be paying more attention to the things she's doing and the spectacle of it all rather than noticing that is the only personality trait she has.

This is a sign you are a bad writer. If you need to take a character and twist their personality to suit your needs, it means that you are otherwise incapable of articulating (or perhaps even conceiving) how a character would react in a given situation. If you have to make Eirin evil, or Remilia evil, or Reimu a bitch, it means that you have missed the point so much, that you are basically writing (probably really bad) original fiction with characters that "look" like and are named after Touhou characters.

Here's the thing: Most fan interpretations do not hold up to scrutiny. Most of the time, they work "fine" (imagine those as font size 50 sarcasm quotes), because we are only seeing the character in a given situation that the personality was designed for. But take them out of that one given situation and it suddenly falls apart.

If Eirin is really doing all these horrible experiments all the time, how does that gel with everyone else? Wouldn't that make the rest of Eientei pretty terrible people as well? Wouldn't that completely break the setting? Can you even map out how characters interact in such a way that you can still achieve the status quo of gensokyo? What does she do when she's NOT kidnapping outsiders and cutting them up? What are her likes? Dislikes? Hopes? Fears?

You need to be able to take the character out of that one situation and STILL be able to write them. Only then can you even begin to call them a character.

The canon characters, at least the ones that have been well defined, actually pass this test for the most part. We have seen Reimu out of her element, as well as Marisa. I'm not neccisarily saying that a character HAS to have been removed from the story to be a character. That's silly. By that definition, no canon characters of any series would be "characters".

But you should be able to look at the canon interpretation of Eirin, keep everything you see there, and reconcile that with what you want to do. If you aren't even capable of reconciling SSiB Eirin and Inaba Eirin, then you obviously have a poor grasp of how human beings (lunarians in this case) work, and probably should put more thought into it before you write a story. "Oh no, she's serious when something serious is happening and actually kind of funny when everyone around her is having fun? IMPOSSIBLE. PEOPLE CAN ONLY HAVE ONE EMOTION AT ALL TIMES."

The other major problem is who you are writing the story for. Say you write that story with Eirin in it. How the fuck do you think people that actually like Eirin are going to feel? You're only going to be alienating them. And for what? A cookie cutter villain that you will probably get bored with writing when you realize that all you know about them is that they like to cut people up for nebulously defined "science".

This is actually one of the big reasons stories die off. Writers hop in without understanding who they are writing and fill in the blanks with memes. Then they hit a wall where they realize how the character would never actually work.

Rather than going the easy route, a new writer should attempt to portray characters as fully realized people. If all you write is fandom personalities, all you'll be able to write are cardboard cutouts. You aren't going to learn anything, and your story. Is. Going. To. Die.

Not "might" die. Will die.

I'm sure you've noticed by now that our completed stories rate here is probably less than 10%. You might as well make your incomplete story a good read than stick with whats easy.

- - -

Upon finishing writing this, I realize how futile it probably is. You didn't even seem to read the last one. There's no way you're reading this! I'm just going hope that someone else, struggling with their own troubles in writing a story, will read this instead and find it useful.

I'm only so wordy about all this because I am really depressed at the state of the site now, and the sheer number of stories that I loved that died horrible horrible deaths. I'm tired of seeing stories going on for two or more years and petering out before even getting past act I.

Maybe I should take people's advice and give a story a try. Even if I'm not a writer, I at least know the source material pretty fucking well, and obviously I have time to spend thousands of words on useless shit like this.
No. 8343
>>8342
You have me listening to your words if that's any consolation. If you have an idea, a goal and a plan to reach it, with some help you'll be able to write a story.

Honestly in my writing I try to work in the confines and vague-ties of canon as I believe that's a key to making a memorable story on this site where various memes have been beaten to death more times than the total amount of deaths in Kaguya and Mokou's feud.

Sadly there's still some who cling to the dark ages.
No. 8345
>>8342
Yeah I kinda skimmed your post and replied to a tiny, tiny part of it. Sorry. But we disagree on major points. Like these.

>the sheer prevalence of interpretations that in no way resemble the character
They resemble a character.
>I have to wonder why the fuck those people are even writing the character at all.
They aren't. Different character. Different character.
>shit about memes
... jesus fuck, I am not sure where to begin

You understand that meme-based, one-note characters can work for their intended purposes. Of course they don't work when used for a different purpose.
Guess what? Complex, three-dimensional characters don't work for all purposes either. It's almost like we use different tools for different jobs!

>You need to be able to take the character out of that one situation and STILL be able to write them. Only then can you even begin to call them a character.
You forgot some adjectives. "Only then can you even begin to call them a well-rounded character."

>IF you are have a discussion about Touhou, and someone asks you what Yukari's past is, the ONLY valid answer should be:

Daiyousei in canon: A midboss in EoSD stage 2. ZUN says she's a normal fairy. She's shown up some other times, but nothing important.
Daiyousei in fanon: Because she was Cirno's midboss, they're often shown as friends in fan works. She's almost always used as a foil to Cirno: smarter than Cirno, timider than Cirno.
Daiyousei in that one doujin, you know the one: A plague fairy.

When discussing fanon, we speak in probabilities. We do not speak in absolutes, like we do when talking about canon or a specific fan work. We are generalizing. You might have a wonderful description of Daiyousei in canon, or a wonderful description of her in fan works, but if you neglect either you have failed to describe Daiyousei in general.

>If you have to make Eirin evil, or Remilia evil, or Reimu a bitch, it means that you have missed the point so much, that you are basically writing (probably really bad) original fiction with characters that "look" like and are named after Touhou characters.
For fuck's sake. ...

Okay. I think I can deal with this.

Canon is a set of traits we use to describe a character, based on a particular, highly respected work.
Fan works may take some of those traits, and replace others. This makes a different set of traits. Popular (STUFF PEOPLE LIKE) sets get reused. If you are using one of these popular sets, you are using fanon.
If you are using fanon, you are not using an original character. Period. There should be no room for debate on this point. We can disagree about whether or not it's Touhou all day, but it is an undeniable fact that you did not come up with this character on your own.

>alienation
So what. By calling your story Touhou, regardless of its content, you've already lost the vast majority of the Earth's population. Do you care? Of course you don't, because you like Touhou.

>Upon finishing writing this, I realize how futile it probably is.
I feel the same way. at least I enjoyed writing this post
No. 8346
>>8345
Daiyousei in fanon isn't a gross violation of canon like Lonely Alice or NEET kaguya. Not to say some fanon can't fit with canon, just that the popular examples of fanon do not fit canon at all and was created for various yuri and gag agendas.

Also popular doesn't always mean better or do you mean to say the twilight series is good?

>You understand that meme-based, one-note characters can work for their intended purposes. Of course they don't work when used for a different purpose.
>Guess what? Complex, three-dimensional characters don't work for all purposes either. It's almost like we use different tools for different jobs!

Yet using a meme character is basically a no-assed cop out and basically a sign that as a writer you'll never be top tier in the modern age. HY and Scorn go away with it because when they were writing, it was basically the dark ages in terms of canon info. Folks today do not have that excuse.

A fully developed character is versatile for various situations, including gag ones.
No. 8347
>>8346
Popularity does not measure good. It measures how many people consider a thing good. It doesn't tell us anything about the reasons why they consider it good. For making predictions, though, it can be a useful metric. For example, if I learned that a middle-aged housewife likes vampire books, I could assume they like Twilight and I'd probably be correct.

>contradicting canon
Don't care.
>cop-out
Yep.
>A fully developed character is versatile for various situations, including gag ones.
Sure.
No. 8349
>but if you neglect either you have failed to describe Daiyousei in general.

Are you saying that when discussing Batman, we have to take into account Pirate Batman, Cowboy Batman, Holy Batman, Vampire Batman, Fraken-batman, Nazi Batman, and so on? Or, to an even more horrifying extent, should we include the "Batman Forever" or "Batman and Robin" movies in a discussion about who batman is?

No, we don't, except to laugh at how retarded they are. There are certainly times to mention fanon when discussing Touhou, but to say that not only are fanworks valid but also required for discussion is just a bit too much.

That said, I do semi agree with at least referencing fanon in the case of Daiyousei. We don't know much about her in canon, as we don't with quite a few characters.

To clarify: this is only when describing characters to newcomers or those asking as OP did. If you want to start describing all the fanon interpretations to someone AFTER they know who the canon character is, go right ahead. Just make sure they know you're talking about fanon. Too many people talk about it without making that clarification, and that leads to a lot of misconceptions.

I was going to go off on another thousand word rant about who *I* thought the characters were before I knew any better, but I think I need to cool it for now. A story for another time, I guess.
Also, yes, I did just read that batman cracked article. Very fortuitous timing there.

I'm starting to really regret the way this discussion turned. This thread had a good chance of becoming a good general q/a thread, which is something I think a lot of people need.
No. 8352
Well, I have a question.

I'm a writer. I try to follow some kind of delay between each updates, in order to keep myself interested in my stories.
But recently, I had personal trouble, and I'm afraid it may affect my stories (like, turning them grimdark or something like that).

So the question I want to ask is: should I stop writing until I feel better, or should I force myself into writing?
I honestly do not know. If I stop writing, I know that I may never write again, but I'm afraid that my writing style may be affected by my personal troubles if I force myslef into writing.
No. 8353
>>8352

I can't help you as a writer, but I can tell you my experiences as an artist.

A few years go, I went through an incredibly painful breakup, and I went into a depression I'm still not even close to breaking out of. Because of that depression, I completely stopped drawing for two years, and completely stopped work on a story I had been working on for a couple years before.

Not only was I not progressing in what I had loved to do, I also had no distractions, and proceeded to wallow in despair because that was all I had.

Now most of my friends are artists several years younger than me, yet all at a higher skill level. I see artists out there being all successful when I am certain I could have matched or exceeded their works.

I really don't know if you should force yourself or not, but I've found that if I don't force myself, I don't draw. And when I don't draw, I miss drawing, and regret that the things I would have drawn will never exist.

Take that for what you will.
No. 8354
>>8353
I will. Thank you.
No. 8355
>>8349
>I'm starting to really regret the way this discussion turned.
I would regret it, but I somehow managed to provoke >>8294 into making a really good post. I want to see more posting from that guy.

>>8353
I know that feeling.
No. 8357
Why doesn't this site have more readers? Or does it have readers, but lack voters?

We've got new, in my opinion good stories. We've got writers. They get votes in the beginning, but that quickly drops off.
We've got old stories, that used to have readers. They don't get votes anymore. Do people not know where the Watch Thread button is?

It wouldn't be such a big deal if so many stories didn't rely on reader input. Write-ins everywhere. Decisions that completely change the direction of the story. It's disheartening to see people not providing input (I know I'm guilty of this.) and I'm not even writing the stories! This must feel a thousand times worse for the actual writers.

Why do you read stories? Why do you vote in stories? What stops you from voting in stories? What sorts of votes do you like? I'm not expecting people to answer all these. I'm not expecting very much discussion at all, to be honest. That's the problem.

Maybe this should go in /blue/. I don't know. I hate making new threads. I don't feel like trying to answer the questions I just raised now. Hard questions are hard and it'd move discussion to my thoughts, when I want to hear your thoughts. ... Is that why writers rely on reader input?
No. 8358
>>8357
Because most fan don't like stories involving Original Characters.
I talk with many of them, and they told me that a story with an OC was "obviously a self-insert and shitty".
And since THP is based on OC to work (votes, CYOA, etc...), it's de facto ignored by most of the fans.
No. 8362
>>8357

Don't really feel like getting into the rest of that right now, but I will say that the thread watch feature is broken. It has never worked for me. It will watch a thread for maybe a couple days, then resets back to "no threads watched".

And even if it did work, it isn't cross board, which by all rights it should be. AND it isn't capable (understandably) of seeing new threads by an author. Which would be a nice feature, by the way.

I think the biggest issue with the site, other than content and voting, would simply be the system itself. The imageboard format is probably the worst possible choice for what we do:

1) Voting and discussion obscures story updates.
A lot of stories die off because threads become clogged. A system such as a standard blog format would allow comments to be hidden or nested so that only story updates are immediately visible. Another solution would be to have all discussion and voting happen in a designated words thread because, seriously, who uses words? This would allow a single story thread to last as long as ten threads normally would.

2) Story threads are split up.
Using this format pretty much guarantees that threads are going to get jumbled up, or some pushed off the board before others. Pretty much any other board format would allow an entire story to be in a single thread, or even have it's own page with a table of contents. This would allow all related stories (alternate routes, side stories, q/a threads, etc) to be grouped up with it for easy access.

3) The imageboard format does not allow for more complex concepts.
This one is huge for me. I would like to do a more graphical CYOA, ideally. The only reason I have not done so is because it is not possible to do in-post imbedding of images, or even having multiple images in a single post at all.

4) Writers don't fucking communicate. (not directly related to the format)
Heres' a fun game. Go to the story list, and search for "stalled" stories. These are stories which are basically dead (most have been inactive for half a year or more) which have had no confirmation from the writer on the status of the story. There are 175 of these out of 500-something stories (not including shorts).

This is part of the reason people are less willing to dedicate themselves to new stories. At any time, a writer can and will abandon their story without a god damn word. This lack of trust has been steadily killing off motivation of both writers and readers.

Oh, as an even more "fun" game, add up our current completion rate for stories. Here are the stats gathered really quick from the story list. Oddly enough, I don't think I've ever seen anyone check before, and the results were even more depressing than I had anticipated:

50 abandoned
35 hiatus
175 stalled
60 scraps

Thats 320 stories that are basically dead, give or take a few miracles. Note that only FIFTY of those were confirmed by the author. Sure sounds like writers don't give a shit about their readers a lot of the time, doesn't it? That means that only 15.6% of writers decided to spare us half a year of hoping the story would continue.

38 sporadic
68 active

Thats 106 current stories, most of which, statiscally speaking, will die off without any warning or explanation in the next six months, especially those that started in the last month, and those labeled sporadic.

66 complete

Out of 492 non-short stories (ie: CYOA stories) only 66 have been completed. Thats only a 13.4% completion rate! That pretty much means that there's an 85+% chance that the stories you are reading right now will never be completed, and more than likely you won't even know the story is dead for sure for months after the fact.

227 shorts
To be fair, if we are counting short stories, that bumps the total to 719 stories, making the completion rate 293, or 31%. Which is still pretty terrible.

What is the point of all that? Simple: To show that something is wrong. We cannot expect this site to thrive when your average reader expects nearly every story they read to never finish! Compound that with the fact that the imageboard system works against both readers and writers, it just makes getting invested in a story way more effort than it is worth.

Have any of you tried to go find a new story to read lately? It is hell. I can't even imagine what that is like for new readers. It must be confusing as fuck.

I would joke that CYOAs are srs business, but considering the amount of emotional investment all parties involve have, they ARE serious business.

We have had some discussion in the past on how to improve the site, but I think there really needs to be a stickied "lets fucking fix this" thread. We really need to consider all of our options, even if it means perhaps changing format entirely.
No. 8363
>>8362
It's not that hard to find the writer's name or such a thread.

And the watched thread list is reliant on cookies so if you don't keep those around on THP, odds are the lists will be affected.
No. 8364
>>8363

I'm not doing anything with my cookies. At once time I had over 20 threads watched. Then the next day "poof" all gone. And no, I don't have it set to randomly delete the cookies or anything, and obviously since it works at all, cookies are enabled for the site.

The long and short of it is that it doesn't matter. For me, at least, thread watch is broken. It wouldn't be so bad if the story list updated more often, had a timestamp for the last update, and allowed you to create a watch list there. That would be useful. But as it stands the story list can't be used for that purpose.
No. 8367
>>8362
Man, you're right, the site could definitely be better. The story list is actually pretty awesome though, I've seen solutions to the same problem on other forums (spacebattles, shrinemaiden) and they look like utter shit. I'm not saying it can't be better, but it could definitely be worse.

As far as completion rate goes, ms paint adventures forums has a subforum for new stories in their CYOA forum. To get out of it, stories have to update 10 times. I'm not sure how well it works for them, since I don't read that forum (or mspa forums in general, but I do enjoy Homestuck), but look at this

>MSPA forums
The Cradle - Threads: 4,351 ... Posts: 127,226
Forum adventures - Threads: 6,447 ... Posts: 733,492
Completed Adventures - Threads: 242 ... Posts: 177,964

Our completion rate looks pretty good compared to that. Of course, you can't really compare two sites with different focuses and vastly different popularity, even if they do use sort of the same medium, buuuuut whatever. I just made the comparison anyway.

>I would joke that CYOAs are srs business, but considering the amount of emotional investment all parties involve have, they ARE serious business.
Yeah, I get way more investment over following an unfinished story than reading a book. And that's without throwing voting into the mix.
No. 8368
>>8367
This is why I read mostly finished stories.
I don't want to emotionally involve myself in a story if there's a risk it might be abandonned by its writer (and that's very hypocrit from me, since I'm a writer myself).
No. 8369
>>8368
It depends on the story. If I really, really like a story, I'm going to read it as it comes, and I don't care if it doesn't complete, because I like it ALREADY. When every single update is a joy to read, why should I care whether or not it gets completed?

For stories that aren't that good, though, I wait until they finish.
No. 8370
>The story list is actually pretty awesome though

Yes, it is. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

> Dem mspa completion rates

Jesus. I had a friend that did a story there (one of the musical contributors for Homestuck and the reason I got into it). I wonder if he ever completed his.

>>8368

Despite how devastated I always am when I get into a story that never finishes RaAN ;_;, I always end up subjecting myself to it anyway. That said, it is a nice feeling when you get that occasional story that actually finishes when you are reading it.

>>8369

I would think you would care if a story you were reading suddenly ended with no closure, but I think I get what you're saying.
No. 8371
>>8362
I can't say much about the thread watcher since I don't regularly use it. I end up refreshing every board on the site every day, more often than not multiple times a day (sometimes it's not a conscious action; I refresh while doing other things on the computer). I do sometimes use the rss feeds to keep myself appraised of developments on certain boards but that's not exactly like a thread watcher so much as a post watcher.

I can take a look at the code to see if it's feasible/worth the trouble trying to make it cross-board compatible. However, I cannot imagine a workable way of automatically adding things depending on author name without it being too resource intensive. A more manual solution also defeats the purpose I feel. All of this is pointless without first knowing if there is a greater problem with the feature as you've implied or if it's just things on your end. The easiest way to quash bugs is if they're straightforward to reproduce or affect a large number of users. I'd love to get more in-depth reports.

There's a lot I can say over the issue of format and, indeed, have in the discussion threads of the past. I agree with some of your observations and am of the overall opinion that the site could use some changes for its betterment.

As for creating a thread for improvements/changes/potential overhauls, it's something I've been wanting and meaning to do. It's something that has been dismissed or waved off by various people I've talked to though, stating that there's nothing more to be said on the matter that hasn't been said before. If you want to open up that debate again, by all means, go ahead. It won't be stickied but I assure you that I will at least give you my honest opinion and state the technical implementation perspective if appropriate.

The reader/vote and stories dying debate? I'd rather keep that in a separate thread if you decide to press that issue as there's too much room for hyperbole and emotion to derail the discussion. I don't see much of value coming from that unless it somehow magically motivates people to be more active and involved on the site and give things a chance. Well, my personal opinion on the subject is pretty well known and I won't repeat myself right now.
No. 8372
I wasn't here when the old discussions took place, but
>I don't see much of value coming from that unless it somehow magically motivates people to be more active and involved on the site and give things a chance.
You're right. I've been meaning to read Treia's stories for a while, I'll do that instead.

>refresh while doing other things
I wish I could stop this. It makes it difficult to concentrate.
>derailing
It was already derailed when I got here, I swear!
No. 8373
>>8368
I read stories I like despite the risks and you should consider that one more reader may actually improve a writer's update rate and such.
No. 8374
>>8372

>I've been meaning to read Treia's stories for a while, I'll do that instead.

Fist pump.

>>8373

I can't tell you how many times a single voter tickled my fancy and pushed me back towards writing for the night. Votes are IMPORTANT people. It saddens me to see dedicated people only getting 1 or 2 votes per update. I was there on my "off-story" and it really bummed me out. The pace picked up, but it
No. 8375
>>8374
I'm following your new story too.
No. 8376
Votes are kind of annoying. For example, in my story, people voted for 2 differents thing, paralyzing me until a third person decides to vote.
No. 8377
>>8376
>votes
>annoying
No. 8378
>>8374
>I can't tell you how many times a single voter tickled my e-peen and pushed me back towards writing for the night. Votes are ATTENTION, people. It saddens me to see depressed people only getting 1 or 2 internet handjobs per update.
FTFY and I wouldn't have it any other way.
>The pace picked up, but it
Jesus Christ, Tyrone. Get your shit together.
No. 8380
>>8378
Tyrone?
No. 8383
>>8378
Depressed writers aside, even secure writers need to know you're worth their time.

They could be playing video games or whatever instead of using their precious free time to write a story for what appears to be an unappreciative audience. Or write somewhere else. There's no shortage of demand for good writers.

I'm thinking of >>/th/148613 as I type this.
No. 8384
>>8377
It's not the vote themselves that are annoying but rather the rather unshakable tie that results.

That's something I've noticed: There's a number of stories that languish in terms of votes chronically.
No. 8385
>>8384
You're the writer. You have the power to do whatever is necessary to resolve the situation. Here are some ideas

* Combining votes
* Making the decision a moot point
* Asking for a revote (do not do this your readers will hate you)

We only have so much Care in our Care tanks. Try to conserve it.
No. 8386
>>8376
What story do you write? I'm curious what other story is chronically sort on votes than the 1-2 I have on my mind.

>>8385
Apparently you never have any at all. Too busy reading /th/ only I bet.
No. 8387
>>8385

Man, don't open yourself up to a Carebears reference. You won't like where it leads.
No. 8389
>>8387
It led me to this.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ThzGN9Qv5Y

Cool~ and strangely topical.
No. 8506
>>8374
>I can't tell you how many times a single voter tickled my fancy and pushed me back towards writing for the night. Votes are IMPORTANT people. It saddens me to see dedicated people only getting 1 or 2 votes per update.

I concur. Personally, I went into the storytelling just to troll the rest of the subsection, but when I seemed to be the only story at that time, I decided to put in effort.

At that point, I remember thinking, even if I get 0 votes, I'm still gonna update.

Looking back, I can say with truth that the votes I have received have been more than a helpful push in the right direction. But moreso than the votes are the voters. Even the readers that put a little effort into copy-pasting the previous person's vote. Because, at least to me as an author, it's someone that wants to see me continue. I may not get over five votes per update, but as long as I have one reader, I'll continue to write.
No. 8756
I've seen a number of stories refer to spell cards as physical cards. I had always envisioned them as nothing but a special named attack rather than an actual tangible object. Are there any canon sources that explicitly show spellcards to be actual cards (or explicitly refuting this), or is this just authors interpreting loose terms differently?
No. 8758
>>8756
It comes from the games.
In IN, for example, when you capture a spellcard, you can see it briefly flying toward your character.
No. 8759
>>8758
>you can see it briefly flying toward your character.
What, really? I've never noticed that before.
No. 8760
>>8756
It also comes from the combat games, where cards are quite tangible.
No. 8767
>you can see it briefly flying toward your character.
This effect?

>It also comes from the combat games, where cards are quite tangible.
Never played those, so that's why I hadn't seen that.

Thanks. Checking the wiki also shows PMiSS refering to them explicitly as a piece of paper. Are there any canon illustrations of a card in any of the print works?
No. 8768
>>8767
No, those things are time orbs.
No. 8769
Okay, I just checked, I was wrong when I said >>8758.
No. 8770
>>8768
There's two things.
First there's a circle of time orbs around the player.
What I was referring to was the purple shape composed of lines directed at the player that vaguely outlines a star.