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4411 No. 4411
There is something wrong here on the boards and I've thought about it to see if I could figure out what it is. I've come up with a few ideas on the matter and the problem here on these boards is that everything short of a major change appears to be met with a tepid response. Lets take a look at some of these situations.

Over the last couple of months, well almost a year, since Teruyo took over running these boards, He's made countless changes and improvements to the boards, implementing new features to add life to these boards. On nearly every occasion these upgrades and improvements have been met with solid indifference and a lack of enthusiasm. I think 3 people told him the IQDB links were good, less than that thanked him for his addition. It was even worse for the /rs/ addition to this board. I don't think I've seen anyone who wasn't me thank Teruyo for the work he put into coding that for our board use. I know people use these and I know people appreciate the additions but I don't think anybody's actually mentioned it.

This is a problem that goes far beyond Teruyo's administration of this site. Far too often lately it has been the case that an author will disappear often without word, and I think I can understand why. Now before I get into it I want to say this following is not really anyone's fault, its more the fault of the format that we use and I'm trying to not accuse anybody of anything this is a general complaint. I've come to call this phenomena Zombie Voting. Where an option will be chosen and then 5-10 exact clones are created of the vote. little to no discussion. The voters see this as giving their approval to that option and a nod to the author to continue. The Author however will not see it like this and interpret this as an empty vote lacking discussion or participation in what is supposed to be a cooperate venture when this is, in most cases, just not the case. The author has fans, he just can't distinguish them and I think that is the #1 reason writers here give up or disappear.

Another problem with the formats we use is that when we encourage participation and come to choices that define the story, we often times create different camps. Examples would be the Pro Flandre and Anti Flandre camps in Gensokyo High, and The pro Reisen camps in just about any /eientei/ story. This is fun participation in the story... until your camp loses. I know a few people who become only somewhat interested in a story when their camp loses. They'll continue to follow it because they enjoy the authors writing style, but because the story is following a path they didn't vote for they feel less inclined to add anything to the route, feeling it "belongs" to the "winners". This shaving of readership happens every time a crucial choice is made until you have a pretty specific camp guiding the votes late in the story.

My third comment, and this is the reason for me to post this whole big.. I guess its a rant on the status of these boards, is about how I've seen some authors treated. Its something that was recently brought up in Fell's thread so I'm only going to touch lightly on it but the "Get back to work writenigger" stuff works to your detriment, and not your benefit. It's not the most encouraging thing to hear as a writer, especially after working on a story. The writers of the stories you enjoy are not doing this for selfless reasons. They want to enjoy the story and the cooperation as much as you do. They want adoration and praise. They want to be part of the community. I was speaking with someone earlier about Teruyo's 2 week absence and why no one seems concerned when I was told "well, he's not very active in the community." What the hell? How could someone who's had 80 full threads of content, ORIGINAL, COMMUNITY DRIVEN CONTENT not be considered active in the community? It seems somewhat silly to me that once you become the writer of a story you are suddenly out of the community. so much so that you can't even use the same trip to vote and comment in other stories.

I have no solutions to these problems I've brought up. I've thought on it but the best I can come up with is that I was once told that WuiG had more in common with the quest threads on /tg/ than it does with the modern shape of these boards, I think this is true and maybe its time we attempt to rediscover our roots. By this I don't mean that we all suddenly change format. I'm not asking you to upset what works for you. But if you are unsatisfied with the shape of how things are right now, then maybe its time to try something different. For both readers and writers.

No. 4413
When I first read Fell's message asking that wall to come back an update, I was going to. I wanted to do something special but then I realized why I quit and I'll let you in on that reason. Every story follows the same pattern, and every main character turns into the same character. Anon can't seem to seperate himself from this archetype, and if a story does manage to break the mold its always temporary and before long you either fight your audience to a bitter standstill or you end up with the same hot blooded white knight who kicks reason to the curb.
No. 4414
>I've come to call this phenomena Zombie Voting. Where an option will be chosen and then 5-10 exact clones are created of the vote. little to no discussion. The voters see this as giving their approval to that option and a nod to the author to continue. The Author however will not see it like this and interpret this as an empty vote lacking discussion or participation in what is supposed to be a cooperate venture when this is, in most cases, just not the case.

I'll admit I know exactly how this feels. To me at least, it is incredibly disappointing and saddening to write an update and when it comes to voting time, you get a slew of votes that are likely just copy/pasted from the default pool.

Now perhaps it's unfair to think every update (that I write anyway) deserves discussion. But sometimes I feel I've put forth effort to spark it, even if it's just some little joke or something, and when you don't see anon acknowledge it I can't tell if they caught it. If it's something plotwise, I can't tell if they knew or if they did, do they care? Maybe the plot I've tried to start just isn't worth mentioning. Maybe they didn't catch it. I can't tell.

I think it can also lead to a bit of jealously maybe. I've only written 2 CYOAs and even though one only spanned a single thread, it's probably contained more discussion in that single thread then two or three threads of RiG. Then you can look at Gensokyo High, where every single update is practically en entire thread. Ok, sure it's mainly as a result of the whole "Camp" problem, so it's maybe not the best kind of discussion, but you can at least tell anon has interest in it.

>Its something that was recently brought up in Fell's thread so I'm only going to touch lightly on it but the "Get back to work writenigger" stuff works to your detriment, and not your benefit. It's not the most encouraging thing to hear as a writer, especially after working on a story. The writers of the stories you enjoy are not doing this for selfless reasons. They want to enjoy the story and the cooperation as much as you do. They want adoration and praise. They want to be part of the community.

Yes, yes I agree. I think this can also have a point to the 'Zombie Voting' problem as well. For me, as a writer, I cannot tell if people truly enjoy my CYOA when even if I don't update on my regular times (which used to be daily) when it seems anon never notices an update is late. Of course, being called a "lazynigger" or something isn't a nice thing to be called, but for the writer it is at least confirmation that anon has an interest in the story and wants to see it continue.

When you can not update for nearly 3 weeks, comment on your lack of updating and reasoning why and your current state of thinking on the whole CYOA, and not a single vote afterwords acknowledges it? To me, it just feels like anon doesn't care. They vote for sake of voting sure, but they seem to have no actual interest in what is going on.

>>4413
I want to touch on this. I want to respectfully say this is false. I'm not the best to probably have an opinion on this matter as I'm rather new and have only read a small handful of CYOAs on the entire site but.

I don't feel every MC is the same as every other MC. It's true that in most cases anon will follow the same general path towards the CYOA. They will be nice guys/gals and will always be very agreeable and all that.

But this is probably because of the format we write in, and that CYOA's here have their roots in VNs. When you have to consider a CYOA will rarely, if ever, have a second run you don't want to make choices that could limit your scope of options. Not to mention that being a snobby jerk to everyone is probably a good way to experience constant BAD ENDs.

There are exceptions though as Kirin did write a CYOA for a time that had a very different MC in that we were playing the villain, and anon got really into it. They never tried to make Wolfgang a "good" person or trying to redeem himself for his evil ways. They very much embraced the evil characteristics and rolled with it.
No. 4416
Welcome to the problems of yesterday.

Teruyo despaired on these and his daily "posts per board drop drastic per day" and all that probably took it's toll and he quit.
At least he wasn't seen for 2 weeks i think.

So i think we have other problems than shit posters and voting at hand now.
No. 4417
> There are exceptions though as Kirin did write a CYOA for a time that had a very different MC in that we were playing the villain, and anon got really into it. They never tried to make Wolfgang a "good" person or trying to redeem himself for his evil ways. They very much embraced the evil characteristics and rolled with it.

Now if only kirin didn't go 'IRC isn't what I want it to be BAAAAAW' and leave.
No. 4418
I think the degradation of the site is a natural progression from its growth in popularity. When you get big, you attract all types - naturally, shitposters and trolls will flow in, but that's not all. You get more writers.

It sounds like a good thing, yeah, but back when this started it was easy to read every single story. We were a tight-knit community, fueled entirely by love for what we were doing. Nowadays, enough people are around that stories can get started for half-assed reasons, that there is a clear divide between "good" and "bad", and that a simple "You wake up in Gensokyo." just doesn't work any more. With the demand for more complexity comes the demand for more skill, and if you don't have it then the only people reading and voting will be the ones that do it for the wrong reasons.

Meanwhile, the fact that there's just so many stories makes it difficult to want to try new things. Not everyone has the time to dedicate to them, and because of the previously mentioned readers you can't even trust people's recommendations. There's not any real, quantifiable "problem" that we can just solve. The site is getting bigger, and (at the risk of sounding like a hipster faggot) it's getting worse for it.
No. 4421
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4421
>I've come to call this phenomena Zombie Voting. Where an option will be chosen and then 5-10 exact clones are created of the vote. little to no discussion. The voters see this as giving their approval to that option and a nod to the author to continue. The Author however will not see it like this and interpret this as an empty vote lacking discussion or participation in what is supposed to be a cooperate venture when this is, in most cases, just not the case.

>Its something that was recently brought up in Fell's thread so I'm only going to touch lightly on it but the "Get back to work writenigger" stuff works to your detriment, and not your benefit. It's not the most encouraging thing to hear as a writer, especially after working on a story. The writers of the stories you enjoy are not doing this for selfless reasons. They want to enjoy the story and the cooperation as much as you do. They want adoration and praise. They want to be part of the community.

THIS

THIS THIS THIS

The "writenigger" stuff doesn't happen all that much to me compared to other people, but the first one--Jesus Christ THIS.

Just say something. Anything. Even if it's just "I'm glad you aren't dead". Even if it's a plot point you're sure everyone else has figured out already. Even if it's just some sort of reaction, like "awesome" or "that's not good" or "oh snap". Maybe it's pathetic of me that I need to hear such acknowledgment, but...

Man, I don't know.
No. 4422
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4422
I don't speak for the rest of anon, just solely for myself but I've always felt the effort put in creating these cyoas were done out of certain love or fascination for Touhou in general.

That they were written not for the sake of fame/infamy, experimenting/testing one's writing capability, or trying to find some semblance of appreciation, but simply because the writers enjoyed Touhou enough to be compelled to write stories.

Always felt it was something of a great privilege to post a vote and maybe make a couple of comments but sometimes, or as it seems quite often, a simple vote is usually enough as most of ones thoughts are often already stated before.

Already had been lambasted for "samefagging" for making a similar comment. I'm sure that would cause most anon to stay quiet for the sake on not being called that, despite appearing the same when all are silent.

ugh that didn't come out the way I had it in my mind but I'm hoping some would understand.

It's always a shame seeing stories suddenly dropped or in perpetual hiatus-end and as much as some anon may post their thoughts and wishes to see it continue, most have become so accustomed to the behavior that it's just easier for them to stomach it and try to move on; especially when they see little hope in asking the writer to continue.

Doesn't apply to all writers, but it helps not to suddenly form an attitude where suddenly hatred towards anon, regardless if its deserved or not, be unleashed as it just spoils everything for everyone. Not even the holy grail of all cyoas would be immune to shitty egotism; Not to be confused with great efforts such as Teruyo's outside his cyoa. That deserves thanks...

Perhaps I'm alone in thinking this way but it beats staying quiet...
No. 4423
>That they were written not for the sake of fame/infamy, experimenting/testing one's writing capability, or trying to find some semblance of appreciation, but simply because the writers enjoyed Touhou enough to be compelled to write stories.

Every author I have spoken with about this subject says you and any other anon that agrees have it completely backwards.
No. 4424
>>4422

I know what you mean pretty well. I've experienced it from the reader/voter's side. But as a writer, I must say that I do not write solely for myself. If I was writing for myself it would not go on paper, or ever leave my head. What makes the experience of writing and posting enjoyable is the reactions, the interactions, with the readers. Lots of no-comment votes are, to the writer, the same a a completely straight-faced or distracted audience, raising their heads just long enough to push their vote, and then losing focus again.

On a personal note, I should say that I have never felt any resentment, as a writer, toward comments summed up as "I agree with that guy." That enough tells me that they have taken the time to acknowledge the issue, and formed an opinion, even if it is not unique.

Not every vote needs a comment. But no comments at all? It's a terrible feeling, and it can drive writers to desperate measures. Or depression, it depends on the writer I guess.
No. 4425
>I don't think I've seen anyone who wasn't me thank Teruyo for the work he put into coding that for our board use. I know people use these and I know people appreciate the additions but I don't think anybody's actually mentioned it.

I doubt most people would know where to thank him for it. The announcement thread is locked, his story isn't really the appropriate place for site discussion, and most readers don't hang out in his IRC channel. Combine this with the fact that a decent portion of the site is still holding some stupid irrational grudge about the first run of DoLA, and I'm not surprised that he ended up leaving because he felt underappreciated.

>Zombie Voting
This is probably just me being a huge faggot, but the amount of complaining I've seen about this had led me to abstaining from voting most of the time. I just don't have the ability to write a paragraph justifying my choice every time I vote, and I'm tired of feeling guilty for it. I do still vote when I really give a shit about a story and can come up with something to say, but that happens less and less these days.

>"Get back to work writenigger" stuff
Been around since WUiG was in /jp/ and I don't think I've ever told anyone to get back to work. It always just seemed rather dumb to get mad at someone for not producing free entertainment quick enough.
No. 4426
>>4425
>This is probably just me being a huge faggot, but the amount of complaining I've seen about this had led me to abstaining from voting most of the time. I just don't have the ability to write a paragraph justifying my choice every time I vote, and I'm tired of feeling guilty for it. I do still vote when I really give a shit about a story and can come up with something to say, but that happens less and less these days.

A sentance is enough. Even a phrase. Something as simple as "oh crap" or "yay" even.
No. 4428
You really think Anon would like to discuss on a story that might just be dropped at any moment due to attention whoring/emoness/just plain doing it wrong?

>>4413
maybe if stories finished they might want to branch out... or you know maybe give your lead a bit of a personality as opposed to leaving it to anon.

>>4414
Reina's adventure rarely provokes discussion since it's mostly Reimu romanacan games with the real interesting stuff (The book, Yukari, THAT TREE) coming up a small fraction of the time.

Look at the game, Fell didn't need to beg for discussion, his story invoked it. He's someone that was DOING IT RIGHT.

>>4416
Maybe having a lead that hot glues dolls wasn't the greatest of ideas... a stigma is a hell of a thing to get off.

>>4417
And general emo-ness, imagine how they felt when Kirin went and did that. And you expect people who experienced this countless time to be quick to invest themselves into something that might last just as long?

>>4418
True on the question reasons why some folks start stories, not enough people do it for the love of it.

>>4421
Update faster; it's hard to care about a story when it goes as slow as Glasnost but without as much meat. People just want you to update faster.

>>4422
I share your sentiments, and even an artistic drive reason is better than an attention whoring one. I remembered a time where it was hard getting a few votes unless you were a big name.

One must hand it to Teruyo, mostly persisting in the fact of the worse adversity in both his runs. Sure he might have screwed up in places, but who hasn't? If anyone could claim anon being unforgiving and never forgetting, it'd be him. Hey Anon forgave Kira, so how long before they forgive Teruyo?
No. 4429
I'll get on the "any comment is a good comment" boat; speaking as a writer, even something like that guy who signs his votes with "Works for me~" is pleasant. Irrational? Perhaps. Humor us anyway, would you?

>>4423
Yep. Love of Touhou is where ideas come from, but it doesn't make them into stories; that's a combination of love of writing, love of attention, and a teensy bit of altruism.
No. 4430
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4430
>>4425
>I doubt most people would know where to thank him for it. The announcement thread is locked, his story isn't really the appropriate place for site discussion, and most readers don't hang out in his IRC channel. Combine this with the fact that a decent portion of the site is still holding some stupid irrational grudge about the first run of DoLA, and I'm not surprised that he ended up leaving because he felt under appreciated.

Holy shit this, I didn't even know Teruyo had a hand behind the scenes of THP beyond his cyoa...

I also thought the whole "infamy" behind the DoaLF-R1 had died down. Anon still joke about the whole lake issue and snow end spiel but I don't hear much about dick-snapping...
No. 4431
>>4429
>I'll get on the "any comment is a good comment" boat; speaking as a writer, even something like that guy who signs his votes with "Works for me~" is pleasant. Irrational? Perhaps. Humor us anyway, would you?

To think I thought I was getting annoying with that simple phrase...

;_;
No. 4432
>>4425
The Grudge against Teruyo is just absurd, if anon can forgive Kira for the snow end, then they can forgive Teruyo. About the first run, It didn't help that some people decided to intentionally muck things up. It's this silly grudge that's hurting /eientei/ in terms of people who want to write there.

wow... I didn't think all that complaining would backfire like this. I wonder how other voters feel when mere votes aren't enough for certain writers.

Anon is understand if something comes up, but they do get angry when a writer decides to go back on his/her expected date of update without anything to explain it and to see said person voting in a story or such.
No. 4434
I usually make the point of not using my trip elsewhere, my identity isn't important elsewhere most of the time, but I feel that it's appropriate to do so now.

As far as site improvements are concerned, I don't do it for the accolades - I genuinely like making this place better and that's reward enough. The couple of times I've posted as an admin it has been anonymously. Yeah, it's nice to see people enjoying additions or being thankful, the same goes with anything done by anyone in life I guess, but that's just the way people are.

>"well, he's not very active in the community."
Whoever said that is an ass. Not just because of he's referring to me or the fact that despite occasional breaks I think I'm one of the most consistent updaters but because of the attitude behind it. It seems to me that we're too entrenched in our own little things. Save for (sadly relatively few) exceptions most people on this site stick to one or two things on these boards. It's fine that different people have different tastes, but it seems to me that most people won't even bother to venture forth and look into other things. Case in point: when we last moved the site people were bitching because they couldn't access the board (a redirect was in place) - it had not occurred to them to check the front page for that redirect. The bulk of the populous won't see this post or even go to /gensokyo/ at all. Let alone the average /th/ poster go to /forest/, /eientei/, or anywhere else.

Meanwhile site traffic is down and there's no easy way to fix that. Tell the people on irc to read shit, try something new? I've heard it's an exercise in futility. I mean, in my own little hermit cave of a channel I'd venture to say that the majority don't actively read anything /eientei/. And this is on a channel about /eientei/. Go figure. Have recommendation threads? Well, take a look at the one that's on here. Not exactly a resounding success and already potentially creeping into needless partisanism. Get new blood on the site? Easier said than done. Going on other sites and advertisement is oftentimes very inappropriate. Ideally, everyone would tell a friend who would tell another and that might work for a community as small as ours. But no dice thus far.

>>4414
>>4421
>>4424
I have to agree with most of what you've said and I share your sentiments. Writing this type of story depends on audience participation. It's encouraging for ideas to be thrown around, comments made, or even the simple 'that was nice' sometimes makes a world of difference.

>>4418
You've pointed out that the site has been getting bigger. It's true from a number of stories standpoint, but readership is down. Post-wise we've gotten slower. I have no access to data from before September, as that's when we inherited this place, but in general the trend has been for less. When I've pointed this out before it's been blamed on holidays, school, and anything but a drop in people or lack of interest.

>>4428
If you constantly worry about shit getting dropped then nothing will ever get done. More update=more votes, more votes=more updates. This is a general truth. It doesn't apply to every case, and stuff like discussion may or may not make things go faster or slower, but it's important to note that things go both ways. In general, the more participation from either/both writer and reader, the faster the story goes.

>Maybe having a lead that hot glues dolls wasn't the greatest of ideas... a stigma is a hell of a thing to get off.
I really don't care enough to be defending things that happened 2 years ago, but consider this: This site was 'founded' by /jp/ emigres. Things may have changed in standards, direction, talent and whatnot for stories and this site as a whole since then but at the time a not-very-serious and quick foray into the territory of self-satire and mindless fun was and shouldn't be seen as an absolute reality. Though it may not be your intent to accuse, I would have it known that I have nothing else to justify or apologize for that hasn't been dealt over the course of my writing and posting.

As an aside, I've often asked about my writing to readers and other writers and about what can be improved. For those who haven't bothered to read much of what I'm currently doing I get pretty bland answers that don't help. They're things that were dealt with, changed, or otherwise a non-issue. Two years of posting and engagement with readers does that. And that dozen or little more or so that reads and votes at times (sometimes intermittently) seems to be pretty content with the way things are going now. Take that as you will, I'm not about to go advertising elsewhere.

>>4430
Big bro set up things (with others), admins, and pays the bills. Not vital information. That said, and this goes for anyone, if you're asking for something on IRC it'd be nice if you popped in for more than just the demand. It's not like a conversation will be the end of you. Part of the broadening horizons thing I've gone on about here. We're much too insular these days.
No. 4436
>>4411
Why do you keep complaining about problems where there aren't any? First it's board condensation, now it's that writers don't get enough attention or user participation--never mind that there's plenty of stories that do.

>(A) problem with the formats we use is that when we encourage participation and come to choices that define the story, we often times create different camps

It's not the fault of the readers. This happens when writefags are bad at managing their stories, and write them in such a way that choices aren't anything more than decisions about with whom you want to spend time. If there's an actual conflict for the readers to overcome, this isn't even an issue.

>The writers of the stories you enjoy are not doing this for selfless reasons.

Doesn't mean that this mentality of entitlement is justified.

>They want adoration and praise.

Then they should work for it. If your story has mediocre prose, no depth of characterization and doesn't offer what people want to read, why should it be praised?

>They want to be part of the community.

What community? Most authors don't read each others' stories and the only group who really talks to each other, IRC--they aren't very active on the site itself.

>>4413
>Mentioning Fell
>"Every story follows the same pattern, and every main character turns into the same character."
>The Game

What?
No. 4437
>>4436
I'd love to live in your world where its all daisies and rainbows, one where I can bury my head in the sand and ignore all the things going on around me. ignorance must truly be bliss.

Its somewhat hypocritical for you to say there are no problems, everything's fine, economy's humming, then go around and say that everything's the fault of the writers who should get off their ass and write more, and manage their stories better. Then to finish it off, you jab in a "what community?" blow. Its like you recognize the problem exists only so long as it helps your argument that the problem doesn't exist.

Yeah, there's no problems here at all.
No. 4438
>>4430
Well they don't say much, but they certainly don't read the second run much at all. Many folks are said to have dropped it at some point and never picking it back up, even on the 2nd run. It's too easy to blame him for everything when in fact it was not the finest hour for voters. Add in some Alice fans fresh off of FLA's death and you have yourself an unforgettable trainwreck.

And if not for Teruyo's status as tech guy here, I'd suspect his haters would have done much worse to the first run than what they actually did.

>>4434
Pickiness about which boards to go to is pretty bad. If not for SDLT, /shrine/'d be dead. There's VERY few people who visits all boards.

And no one wants to invest so much time and energy in a story lest it just goes and dies due to some reason, such as NARH's /youkai/ story? Have that happen enough times and you'd end up a cynic who just wants to see a story actually end. Cynical enough to go to some new story by a up and coming writer and saying he's HY.

The Game was really a breath of fresh air, a reminder of the old days where people finished their stories and were fueled by their drive and love of touhou. Writing solely for attention or fame are terrible reasons. Writing that has both skill and soul put into it naturally attracts praise and fame.

>>4436
He's always complaining; and his view is so good from #eientei.

>"Every story follows the same pattern, and every main character turns into the same character."

That's something Fell did well, he made a lead an actual character and not an "Anon". There's no shame in giving your leads personality because it'd help avoid certain MC cliches. Even Belmonymous escaped such a generic fate.

>It's not the fault of the readers. This happens when writefags are bad at managing their stories, and write them in such a way that choices aren't anything more than decisions about with whom you want to spend time. If there's an actual conflict for the readers to overcome, this isn't even an issue.

Very true, look at Fragment of Memories, where any kind of shipping dispute only occur in the lulls of the main plot. This and The Game had disputes over plot important decisions.

>Doesn't mean that this mentality of entitlement is justified. Then they should work for it. If your story has mediocre prose, no depth of characterization and doesn't offer what people want to read, why should it be praised?

If one wants discussion, write in a way that invokes it. Anon is slow to say anything these days barring something truly exceptional. Something just going through the motions won't get much said unless it starts sucking real bad or it finishes.

>What community? Most authors don't read each others' stories and the only group who really talks to each other, IRC--they aren't very active on the site itself.

Always busy for nearly anything but their own recreation, work and IRC. And some particularly lazy writers don't even have school or work as an excuse.

>>4437
Yeah there's a few problems, but it's not the end of the world. I think people are keeping an eye on the new blood, which really don't go to IRC. What you basically did was rile people up for next to no good reason.
No. 4439
>>4416
Unfortunately this may be true. Teruyo may not be gone but unfortunately the bulk of the problems remain, and what Teruyo says in >>4434 is true. Our small niche group breaks itself up even further into smaller niche groups that don't really interact.

>>4414
>>4421
>>4422
>>4425
About the Zombie Voting stuff. Like I said, It's neither the readers nor the writers fault. I believe this to be an error of the format or one of perception. Its not as if the readers WANT writers to feel like they are being cold to a story. Its the opposite. they vote like this as a nod of approval.

>>4434
Teruyo said pretty much everything else I wanted to say, and more eloquently than I could have. Perhaps that is why he is still writing and I am not.
No. 4440
I'll sort out my thoughts to be typed out later, but for now I want to address a couple things that bugged me in this thread.

>>4421
As someone already said, the reason there's so little activity in your thread is because it's been almost a full year and there's still just that one thread. glasnost speed is...acceptable when you also have glasnost meatiness in your updates, but there isn't much meat on these particular bones. It's not very encouraging to someone who hasn't read it yet and notices the very large gap between the first post and last update. I like your story, but it's hard to care about an update when I think there's going to be a couple weeks of waiting in between the latest and the next.

>>4413
This is really complete bullshit. Yes, we know, it's a CYOA, but this is supposed to be your fucking story. It IS possible to make a character that has their own personality. Thing is, you're the writer. If you want your character to have a personality all their own, write it that way. Have them react to various choices and votes the way that they would. This can backfire if you're not careful, however. HY made a character in 'A Different Place' that was really a coward who was completely out of her depth, and as a result, anon voted as such. HY also didn't want this, apparently, which totally just boggles my mind as to why he would write a cowardly character in the first place, but...

Well, you get my point. Or maybe you don't, as looking back on this post reminds me why I usually keep my mouth shut when I'm sick as a dog.
No. 4441
File 127353347584.jpg - (28.92KB , 386x364 , 1193125106666.jpg ) [iqdb]
4441
>Over the last couple of months, well almost a year, since Teruyo took over running these boards, He's made countless changes and improvements to the boards, implementing new features to add life to these boards. On nearly every occasion these upgrades and improvements have been met with solid indifference and a lack of enthusiasm. ...

I wanna call BS on this because I myself thanked him quite a bit for the IQDB thing, though I was less estatic about the RS thing since, well, I didn't feel it was THAT necessary. A large amount of what you want in downloads from this site can be found in a single thread, where the images speak louder then the actual filenames. It was a nice addition, but I didn't find it very useful myself. Others might feel differently though.

But I do remember looking around the boards when the IQDB links were added and there were so many people that just randomly went "woah what's IQDB thing, it's awesome" and there have been many, if small discussions raised about it in certainly random threads. I for one feel that Teruyo's work is in fact, appreciated by the majority of the community here.

>... I've come to call this phenomena Zombie Voting. Where an option will be chosen and then 5-10 exact clones are created of the vote. little to no discussion. ... The Author however will not see it like this and interpret this as an empty vote lacking discussion or participation in what is supposed to be a cooperate venture when this is, in most cases, just not the case. The author has fans, he just can't distinguish them and I think that is the #1 reason writers here give up or disappear.

This is less a problem with the voters and more a problem with the writers. It's no secret that half the writers here are quite low on self esteem (myself included) and that they are most definitely well aware of this fact; a thread I made a while back here has a few writers admitting to this fact. The solution though is in control of the fans of these writers; giving thumbs up to good updates, trying to spark discussions about what you might think may be going on in the story, trying to tell others your theories or predictions so that you can help the story become better guided by other voters, all this can help a writer feel better about himself and motivate him/her to write more, write better, and ultimately make the story on whole an enjoyable experience for everyone involved.

Zombie Voting isn't necessarily the problem, since a few writers can see past this and write a great story regardless, but that isn't to say that trying to make better votes won't fix the problem at hand either.

>Another problem with the formats we use is that when we encourage participation and come to choices that define the story, we often times create different camps. ...

I know how this feels, I was in a DoLF camp myself the first run through and felt a little discouraged to vote after seeing how it somehow turned on it's heels and got an Alice route. But I still kept voting up until the bitter end and I was even there to read the rather surreal ending the story on whole had. I guess the reason why I instantly got turned off from the second thread is because it didn't really feel like the same experience as the first, but you know, that's to be expected. This is storywriting, not a video game.

>... the "Get back to work writenigger" stuff works to your detriment, and not your benefit. It's not the most encouraging thing to hear as a writer, especially after working on a story. ...

Oh my god this. A million times this. I can speak with full clarity on how much I can attest to this fact. And I see it everywhere, even on /blue/ of all places. This awful habit of anon's needs to stop, because it is under the writer's full discretion on whether or not they feel they should continue writing. They're not being paid for this, they write because it's fun.

>... I was speaking with someone earlier about Teruyo's 2 week absence and why no one seems concerned when I was told "well, he's not very active in the community." What the hell? How could someone who's had 80 full threads of content, ORIGINAL, COMMUNITY DRIVEN CONTENT not be considered active in the community? ...

Admittedly, about 95% of these threads are in /eientei/, a place that doesn't garner much attention anymore because of Teruyo's rocky start. It's awful, but first impressions are definitely important, it can ruin you for a very long time if you make a bad one. Hopefully that dark cloud has been dissapating in recent times though, since DoLF2 seems to be in much better shape, and people aren't talking as much about Teruyo's "short comings" as a writer anymore.

Though, yeah, that's just of Teruyo using his trip. I'm sure he posts tons of other things elsewhere, but it's not like anyone knows; he doesn't use his trip anywhere else other then /eientei/

All in all though, it certainly feels like a lot of the drama surrounding these boards seems to love hanging around Teruyo a lot. Really makes me thing sometimes. Maybe that's just me though.
No. 4442
>>4438
>And if not for Teruyo's status as tech guy here, I'd suspect his haters would have done much worse to the first run than what they actually did.

...What? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Teruyo had anything to do with managing the site until we moved to touhou-project.com. The first run was over way before that happened.

I'm not even going to touch the Wiseman-esque notion that people were somehow out to sabotage the story.
No. 4443
>>4442

I don't believe people were out to sabotage it either, but there are times when I have to wonder if that really was it. Anon can be pretty retarded, but what happened back then was just...

Anyway. If you're still butthurt about the first run, stop. Read the second run, it's good.
No. 4444
>>4443
I think for the first run it was just a perfect storm of elements mashing together. not that that matters now. its over, and I suggest giving the new run a try.

I just wanted the get.

Gets are for losers - Big Bro
No. 4445
There are a few things that i cannot agree with you. First let me start with

>Zombie Voting
These days, or since some time or rather 6 months up to a year, things seem to be kind of mechanical. Somehow it seemed more like a deed to vote and read, vote and read than to really enjoy things written. I am not sure when it started but somewhen the energy and the activity from the time when we first came to THP is just gone. You could say that the feeling of something new, a CYOA with Touhou, from the very first time is kind of gone. GM was never a great or good writer but she did what no one else did before, the right people were present too and it just fit together. Now to come back to my very first line, why it feels mechanical: Because we have seen most of it already. We went after Remilia, got hunted down by Reimu, Space adventures with Captain Anonymous Rex, YAF's crazy TS/crossovers, Owens sad story and so on. Nothing much that can surprise us anymore. Of course there are some like Fell or Lion who don't reinvent the wheel but take the it and write something magnificent. This and that the intial people who came over from /jp/ are either gone or inactive, no new people come over to fill the gaps left contributes that things like Zombie voting happens and that no comments are made.
But i agree with you on that it is a nod to the writer, a support and thank you in one vote.

>create different camps
This is already a long gone problem. That was only of matter when HY still wrote or some bigger story was going on. Since Taisa quit writing, or whatever, does not count as a problem but only as a minor one. The rest are more pressing ones. We can worry about that later.

>some authors treated
Get back to work nigger was never meant serious, it just showed that you wanted update. you have to thank Scorn for that, because he said he didnt mind it if someone said it to him. As much as i want to help the writers, i can just only vote and comment a bit and once someone else comments there can be a discussion. And always telling the writers how much we love them is not doing them any good.
And of the guy who said "well, he's not very active in the community." Teruyo was never liked, i don't know why but people seemed to hate or really dislike him. So i can imagine there is still much hate going around. I know that Teruyo always says that the comments and discussion is gone and he wished he had it but that is just a combination of things that happened or are happening.


So let us take a look at the situation. We won't get many people. It could be possible to find some on pooshlmer or even a few from /jp/. Some other place? None i can think of. So that is out of question.
Get people to comment or discuss more? Not really, i think everyone is giving their all already and comments and discussed when they feel like it. A no too.
So the only thing would be to get the people who came over or joined halfway through back to read.
No. 4446
I should probably actually check for posts made whiling I'm writing before actually posting myself.

>>4434

>It's fine that different people have different tastes, but it seems to me that most people won't even bother to venture forth and look into other things.

This issue has been touched upon so many damn times it's almost moot point by now. I'll admit, I'm a little guilty too; I avoid /forest/ and /th/ for the most part, and usually don't find myself motivated enough to check /others/, but I still try to look around the site enough to where I'm usually not left completely in the dark. Oh, I also sometimes forget the /coriander/ exists at times, but that's more because there's really nothing special about it. Apart from Yuka. Whom I'm indifferent about to begin with.

>You've pointed out that the site has been getting bigger. It's true from a number of stories standpoint, but readership is down. Post-wise we've gotten slower.

I keep feeling like you and Spring are overdramaticizing this issue a whole ton and it's starting to get to the point to where the issue is reminiscent of the god damn Y2K bug. Seriously, it's not that bad. I don't know WHERE you get this "10 posts a week" bullshit because for the past few months, while a couple weeks have been slower then others, that's a serious exaggeration and making more drama then this place needs.

Oh, and by the way? I'm pretty tired of the "at least drama is activity" bull too. No activity is bad, but tons of drama is tiring and makes me want to come here less. At least with no activity I'd still check in once in a while just i ncase. With nothing but drama, that's just going to tell me that the next time I check, there will just be more drama. That makes me want to check less. Gensokyo High is a good example of "bad activity" at times. If you really want more activity, fucking do something about it rather then baw about it and inciting drama. I'm so tired of drama, it's not funny anymore.

>As an aside, I've often asked about my writing to readers and other writers and about what can be improved. For those who haven't bothered to read much of what I'm currently doing I get pretty bland answers that don't help.

Be it a little defensive for me, but you should be more then aware that asking me for advice is a bad idea for you, Teru. Most people here will tell you that I learned from you, for better or for worse. I may have split off from you on that regard since, but my point still stands; if anything it should be me asking you for advice on how to improve. I give advice to another writer on this site, but that's because he doesn't have anyone else to rely on, since he likes detaching himself from the community on whole, not wanting to be a part of it. There's another friend of mine that I frequently ask proof reads and advice from, but unfortunately my plans to recruit him onto this site have been nil because he simply does not give a shit about this place. He'd sooner set these boards on fire then write on them.

As for the readers, you'll really have to consider HY's standpoint on it and how much it makes sense; the reason why he stopped writing here is because he needs a place where he can improve. THP is not one of them. You need to come to this realization yourself. Anon will tell you if you're good or bad but not much else beyond that.

The rest of your points Teruyo I will more or less agree with however. If you really need me to point them out though, then maybe you should sit and think about yourself and how you really feel about things in general first, before considering that again.
No. 4447
>>4440
IIRC it was the opposite; HY wanted a weak cowardly character but Anon figured that Heather would inherit the power of Yukari and basically fix everything. I recall him specifically pointing out a comment along the lines of "every route is a fix gensokyo route".

>>4443
not >>4442, but how does the second run relate to the first? I think I read the first post when it first started, thought it was a recollection of run 1, and stopped. Are they related?
No. 4448
>>4447

While I have yet to read run 2- partly time issues and whimsy- it apparently starts near the beginning of the first run, after the introductory part, but before things got really screwed up.

Considering I haven't heard any complaints about it, I'd have to say it's going good.
No. 4450
>>4440

>This is really complete bullshit. Yes, we know, it's a CYOA, but this is supposed to be your fucking story. It IS possible to make a character that has their own personality. Thing is, you're the writer. If you want your character to have a personality all their own, write it that way. Have them react to various choices and votes the way that they would. This can backfire if you're not careful, however. HY made a character in 'A Different Place' that was really a coward who was completely out of her depth, and as a result, anon voted as such. HY also didn't want this, apparently, which totally just boggles my mind as to why he would write a cowardly character in the first place, but...

It didn't help that us readers after seeing various tales with pathetically weak leads and bad end minefields gave Anon a trend of timidness. HY's choice of character only made it worse.

It's only until recently where we got some leads that can handle themselves in a fight most of the time that the trend started to reverse. The lead doesn't even have to particularly strong for readers to be bold. Palingenesia's heroine isn't that strong for the most part, but she's basically Batman.

>>4441
I think it's more like boards people choose to read. Some folks only stick to so and so boards and not bother reading the others, often for stupid reasons.

As for the infamous "Lazy Nigger" remark? Well that's a result of people who fail to meet deadlines they set themselves and have no good reason. You don't hear that being said to folks like Glasnost at all.

I do feel that /eientei/ and /shrine/ suffer as a result of who wrote on them. I wonder if the trend will ever fully reverse itself. And to be honest, Teruyo asked me to stop reading his story, so I haven't really checked. I think I can be a productive reader of it now.

>Oh, I also sometimes forget the /coriander/ exists at times, but that's more because there's really nothing special about it. Apart from Yuka. Whom I'm indifferent about to begin with.

Ironically, the only active story there is more centered around Mokou and Letty, not Yuuka.

>I give advice to another writer on this site, but that's because he doesn't have anyone else to rely on, since he likes detaching himself from the community on whole, not wanting to be a part of it.

Curious who that is, though I can't completely blame them.

>Gensokyo High is a good example of "bad activity" at times. If you really want more activity, fucking do something about it rather then baw about it and inciting drama.

This, since some folks are so caught up for attention they think that's good. I do agree with everything else in your two posts.

>>4443
Hard to tell at times, with votes like "Watch Bible Black with Kaguya" and "Confess to Alice" It's a big mystery of the intent of those votes, either be it naive stupidity or intentional trolling.

>>4445
I disagree with "having seen it all"; I think it's more "Never know when this story'll die", and seeing some of the modern writers' constantly cry for attention does little to reassure the readers of the story's survival rate. And factor in the slow speed of some of them, folks would just want the updates faster.

>As much as i want to help the writers, i can just only vote and comment a bit and once someone else comments there can be a discussion. And always telling the writers how much we love them is not doing them any good.

I think some attention starved writers would just love that.

I do not know what happened with Teruyo and the rest of the site, but it seems to have stuck longer than what Kira got.

>>4447
Really? That'd be the first case of Anon trying to take things in a direction HY didn't intend it, but at the same time HY didn't communicate things clearly since I think he intended fixing Gensokyo without god-like power.

The second run of DoLF two rewinds the clock massively then goes on differently from there. Not really related at all other than an adjustment of characters, closing off of a possible Alice route. You might get a few small things about the first run, but other than that, it's its own story.
No. 4451
>>4436
I think if anything this thread directly contradicts some of the assertions you've made. What writers here and anonymous have said do indicate that problems exist. Blaming everyone else for shortcomings and burying your head in the sand really isn't going to help things. This is (in my opinion) a much needed discussion and has been going pretty well. Not everyone sees eye to eye, and that's fine. Anyone who cares about the site would like to see this place be all that it is and more, and sweeping concerns under the rug may do just the opposite.

>>4438
>He's always complaining; and his view is so good from #eientei.
Eh? While at a time (when the site was being consolidated by us) most of the discussion on #eientei was about the site and its future most of the talk before and since then has been about other things. Lunarians, short stories involving moon bunnies, video games, the occasional talk about an active story, and other things you'd find in any irc channel.

>I think people are keeping an eye on the new blood, which really don't go to IRC. What you basically did was rile people up for next to no good reason.

I don't ever think that openly talking about things counts as riling people up 'for no good reason'. Besides, alleged new blood going to irc or not, it doesn't change our insular nature one tiny bit. I honestly don't think our population hasn't gotten larger to begin with. Just judging from statistics, bandwidth, and random observation over a period of months.

>>4441
>it certainly feels like a lot of the drama surrounding these boards seems to love hanging around Teruyo a lot
People don't like me/will say something negative when I'm brought up/won't say much. That's basically it. Save for an exception made in a post or two I'm not a hot topic. I can think of several other writers or stories that have had a whole 'nother scale of drama surrounding them.

>>4442
Nothing to do until touhou-project.com. Wasn't even a mod under Holy's nonexistent administration.

And, yeah, there were people voting for shit just to make things worse. I started putting a stop to that and they mostly got bored and left. There'll be the odd inconsequential vote or comment from someone who is not a regular, but they are ignored by both readers and myself.

>>4446
>This issue has been touched upon so many damn times it's almost moot point by now.
Not really on the boards, no.

>I keep feeling like you and Spring are overdramaticizing this issue a whole ton
Just stating it as it is. I haven't exaggerated anything I've said. About two weeks ago /eientei/ was the fastest board on this site. It had consistently had faster posting for two weeks than /th/. Think about it. Exception? Probably. But what I am getting that is that on average posting rates have gone down quite a bit. Like "won't scratch 100 posts a week often" for places that traditionally have done much better.
>"10 posts a week" bullshit
Where did you get that?

No one here is inciting drama. People have said that discussion is good and that's pretty much it. That activity is important. And I'm in agreement and have claimed it's a two way thing between writer and reader.

You might want to take a deep breath as you seem, well, riled up. That point was a general one, I was not referring to any conversations I had with you; I've talked to plenty of writers, not just you. Whatever you think I'm criticizing about you, I'm not.

>As for the readers, you'll really have to consider HY's standpoint on it and how much it makes sense; the reason why he stopped writing here is because he needs a place where he can improve. THP is not one of them. You need to come to this realization yourself. Anon will tell you if you're good or bad but not much else beyond that.

Here may be the big divide between us. You misunderstand, I do not ask for advice to improve just to be a better writer. I ask so to make my writings here more enjoyable. I'm not kidding myself, THP is not full of literary critics. I've understood that from day one. What I'm asking when I've asked for input is for any deficiencies I have that I could fix so as to make something more enjoyable. From day one I've been a fervent believer that I'm doing what I'm doing for fun. Not to become a good writer, grow as a person or whatever. Those things may occur as a byproduct of my time here, but are not my main goal. My main goal has been and always will be to do something that's fun for me and my readers.

This is why I don't mind not being gifted or technically savvy as a writer. Nor will I ever pretend to be those things. I'm all for taking it easy and having fun with tales about magical flying lolis in a strange and wonderful land.

>>4447
>>4448
Summary of events that happen before getting into choice. The idea was to skip background as the premise was established and get to choosing the path the story would take. Honestly, it didn't go as well as I wanted in retrospect and it isn't until the lock that things start shaping up and being more enjoyable.
No. 4452
>>4438
Little late, but hello there. Fuck you.

"So much" time and energy? You spend ten minutes - ten fucking minutes - reading something that, at least for me, has yet to take less than an hour and a half. Your so-called time and energy is horse shit compared to what the writers do. No, voting isn't a service to them, or at least it shouldn't be. It's the point of the site.

If you want a story to reach its end so badly, help make a writer feel like they want to write. Enough have shown up and said how that I shouldn't need to repeat it.

And no, this doesn't mean I'm coming back. I never really left.
No. 4453
>>4447

Really? Shit. My original points still stand, but I guess I need to go reread A Different Place. Didn't think my memory was that bad...
No. 4454
>>4451
Yeah I'm proven wrong about nothing good coming of this. Folks coming into IRC more is a good thing, since it'll be less misunderstandings. But as far as population? I think the problem isn't so much size but getting some folks' heads out of their asses about which boards they go to. If our population got bigger certain problems would just get worse.

If more people visited and wrote at all the boards instead of just /th/, then things would seem livelier. This relates to the cycle of votes>updates>votes because people post mainly on /th/ out of place because it's usually the liveliest board, thus plenty of votes. I suspect that when most of the writers in a section are slowed down by a common element, the effect is rather disastrous.

As for what's happening in /th/? Well /eientei/ has you and Serial ATA, both reliable writers. /th/ in contrast has folks blogged down by school mainly.

One chatroom isn't the same as looking all over the site.

And I'd try giving advice, but you kindly asked me not to read your story, which I did out of respect of you. I'd like to give it another shot, this time more productively.
No. 4455
>>4451
that was me with a flippant over-exaggeration in the chat room. I just pulled a number out of my butt in guesstimation and it was ran with. I should be more careful about that if I'm gonna be taken seriously.

whoops.

Also I got told. Gets are dumb.
No. 4456
>>4451
Oh and Kapow needs a word with you about site adminy stuff whenever you have a min. he's on IRC waitin around.
No. 4457
>Currently 2149 unique user posts.
So how many users do we actually have here?
No. 4458
>>4445
>Taisa quit writing

No I haven't, damnit. Well, not officially or on purpose anyway.

GH just isn't coming to me right now. I wonder if I'd get lynched if I devoted the next 5+ updates to my /sdm/ story instead, just to get my body and brain back in writing mode...
No. 4459
>>4458
I don't mind, if writing in your /sdm/ story helps, then please do.
No. 4460
I never comment. I rarely even vote.
No. 4461
>>4428
>Reina's adventure rarely provokes discussion since it's mostly Reimu romanacan games with the real interesting stuff (The book, Yukari, THAT TREE) coming up a small fraction of the time.

Yes I'm aware of this. I don't expect discussion every single update no, but in the updates that I have hinted at stuff going on behind the scenes - in other words a plot - there isn't even a flicker of recognition from anon. I can't tell if they noticed, I can't tell if they care, so to me as a writer I can only assume it isn't interesting, or they haven't noticed.

This is my personal opinion as a writer here. But even if there isn't anything particularly noteworthy to discuss in RiG, I would still appreciate something beyond a copy/paste of a vote.

To me personally, this doesn't make me think anon finds RiG very interesting. Heck, in a number of updates I've voiced my concerns on RiG - on its lackluster status, or the long delays in updating, etc. etc, but there's never a comment directed to it.

I think the only time anon even mentioned the long wait for an update, was the one before the current. And it was from friends I know on the site, not really from anon as a whole.

I will again express my personal feelings on RiG as a writer. To me I find it to be a great improvement from the original RiG, but as a CYOA I feel it's a terrible failure. Reina has become a rather popular character, to my surprise, but I feel the CYOA itself is hardly any good. As mentioned like some writers, I have terrible self-esteem. Seeing anon take interest by commenting makes me feel good, it makes my work feel appreciated. When I post an update that I feel has something going for it, and there's only copy/paste votes, it really puts a downer on my spirits.

I liked RiG a lot at the start. It was fun to write, and I had so many ideas. But as I've mentioned time and time again in the thread, without any commenting from anon, it's become a chore for me. I'd much rather get home from work and play video games then put forth the effort to force out an update into a CYOA I feel is only being voted on because anon wants to see Reina in a relationship with Reimu/Yuuka/Yukari/all three.

I mean, that isn't a bad thing at all no. But it feels like that is all RiG has going for it. I've tried time and time again to hint there's more going on in RiG then just "Touhoulovin'", but each time it's been passed over.

Heck. Hakurei Shrine of Cards, a CYOA entirely about a single game of strip poker? It was entirely more successful then RiG for inciting comments, and it was written in /shrine/, which is considered to be rather overlooked. To compare in the first update of RiG, there were 5 votes. HSoC had 6, including about 4 image posts. The second? RiG had a single vote. One. I forget how many HSoC had but I think it was about 4 or something. RiG was surviving off a single vote for a number of updates as I recall, although I will not blame this entirely on anon. At that time I loved RiG a lot, I wanted to update it so much I'd sometimes call it a bit too quickly yes, but even in longer stretches... a single vote? It's soul-crushing.
No. 4462
File 127354134275.jpg - (46.12KB , 400x299 , you_are_a_pirate.jpg ) [iqdb]
4462
>>4460
No. 4463
>>4452
People bothered with discussions in it, and I apologize if I sounded mean, but I was just using an example of what happens when someone drops a story and the feelings of bitterness that comes over the reader. And there's plenty of that in your tread, but there's not much any of us could do about a pot-enhanced depression.

Again I apologize if I sounded particularly harsh. That was the dropped story bitterness showing through.

>>4458
If that's what you need to get into the grove, go right ahead, I'll even hold back the lynch mobs.
No. 4464
>>4460
Start.

>>4463
>I'll even hold back the lynch mobs.
What, by starting an unrelated shitstorm somewhere else on the boards? If anyone can do it, it's you, Wiseman.

>>4451
>I honestly don't think our population hasn't gotten larger to begin with. Just judging from statistics, bandwidth, and random observation over a period of months.
That double negative confuses me. Also, would you mind talking a little about the nature and scale of the problem in terms of these statistics you're talking about, or is it too depressing to put in print? I get the impression that you've done so on #eientei before, but have intentionally avoided putting it on the boards themselves.
No. 4465
>>4458
I doubt anyone will really hurt you. You forget, GH and THV are both really well-liked. Seeing both in a state of no-updates is rather depressing.

If one has to suffer for a bit so you can get "into the mood", then I would think it's a worthy sacrifice. This is a motivation for me starting work on a new CYOA, so I can retire RiG for a bit and get my feelings towards it up again.
No. 4466
>>4463
You're right. There are feelings of bitterness, and there wasn't much you could do about my reasons for dropping that story.

But you were also right about the readers being great in that case. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't have made it past the stint with the SDM. You don't know how long depression was getting in the way, man.

I don't want to make excuses for myself, though. What I'm saying is, you as readers have the power to give someone that motivation. There are so many stories that are dropped because of general laziness or a lack of free time, but if they got half the support I did I'm sure they would find the energy or the time.

When you end up as cynical as you say and you stop trying, there's no reason for the writer to try either.

Also quit it with the "pot enhanced depression" thing. How is spending an afternoon thinking about how much I love everything around me and laughing at trivial things making it worse?
No. 4467
>>4464

I am not Wiseman, but that some folks would be the type to muck up THV due to no GH updates. I also said this more to reassure Taisa about the suggestion than any actual action.
No. 4468
>>4466
Nothing wrong, but wasn't the story when you quit that it brought a downer of a moment instead of a upper? That's what it sounded like.

We're all hoping for the best.
No. 4469
>>4437
Storyteller--show me a story that suffers from “Zombie Voting” that’s as good as the Game. Show me a story that suffers from partisan stupidity that’s as good as the Game. Show me a story suffers from a dearth of sincere praise, encouragement and attention that’s as good as the Game.

The “problems” you have highlighted are illusory, and they pale in comparison to the real issue: authors who (whether they say it aloud or not) think that an adoring readership is an obligation due to them for writing, and not something that naturally happens when a story is good. If they would only recognize that their perceived failings have their origins in themselves (and not their readers), and put their focus on fixing and improving their work instead of grieving over how people don’t participate to their satisfaction, then all of the alleged “problems” with the site would go away.
No. 4470
>>4464

I see the Wiseman meme is still going strong.
No. 4471
>>4469
There is a problem with this. Most of the time author's don't know if there's anything wrong with their writing.

We tend to need feedback to figure this out. If all a writer gets is votes with no comments, they can only think there's nothing wrong.
No. 4472
>>4471
>If all a writer gets is votes with no comments, they can only think there's nothing wrong.

That isn't what you said at >>4414.

>it is incredibly disappointing and saddening to write an update and when it comes to voting time, you get a slew of votes that are likely just copy/pasted from the default pool.

You mention here that you're getting "Zombie Votes," and that far from thinking "there's nothing wrong," you are dissatisfied with it. What I'm not clear about, however, is if you're asking for people to show more interest or if you're asking for criticism to improve your writing.

If it's the latter you want, you should specifically ask your readers to provide it. As I'm one of them, I can say something on that point--if you wish.
No. 4473
File 127356620063.jpg - (709.99KB , 800x1920 , fuckyotowah.jpg ) [iqdb]
4473
>>4469
Let me get this straight.
You claim that things like this so-called "zombie voting" or the tendency of some voters in certain stories to divide themselves into factions are not really problems, because such things are simply the result of writers not being good enough, but don't realize they simply aren't good enough because they're blinded by some sense of entitlement, and if they would just try to make themselves good enough these "alleged" problems would simply go away?

What about the people who aren't writers who also consider those things to be problems?

I won't deny that some things from the writer's side contribute, but to suggest that the voter's side doesn't also play a part is absolutely ridiculous, as is your belief that it's just the writer who has to change things for the problems to go away.

As a voter myself, I am utterly baffled at how you can look at some of the behaviors on this side and NOT think that there are some things in dire need of improvement from us.

Case in point: ANY instance where a "route" in one story is brought up and used to justify a particular course of action in a separate and completely unrelated story written by a completely different writer.

When the stories themselves feature different settings, different interpretations of the characters, and different plots, to the point that even if you had the exact same Touhou as the central character the stories would still be nothing alike, there is no way you can blame the writers or their hang-ups on shit like that. That sort of thing is purely the product of the voter's side, and I can guarantee that even if every single writer on this site improved in the ways you think they should while the voters stayed right where they are, this sort of thing would still happen.

>>show me a story
>>that’s as good as the Game.

See, there's a bit of a problem here.
Not every story on this site is like The Game. As an extension of that, not every voter on this site is like the ones that followed The Game. So then, how can that possibly be a fair or reasonable basis for comparison in regards to these problems that are, in part, due to the readers/voters following them?

Some people here are natural-born write-in artists, while others are content to just copy and paste the first thing they think looks good and call it a day. Some love picking apart details from both current and previous posts, no matter how tiny, and theorizing about the events of a story, while others more or less just take everything at face value. Some follow a story because they enjoy the plot and characters, while others might simply hope to see some porn.

With so many stories catering to so many different tastes, it's only natural that some will be followed by more of one type and less of another, and while the actual quality might play a part in attracting the people it does, it's hardly the only factor at work.

As for The Game, while I can't deny that the story's quality may have had a part in the relative lack of problems that other stories have suffered, I also cannot deny the possibility that it may have simply lucked out in terms of the readers and voters it attracted.
Just because there's an exception to the norm does not mean that norm doesn't exist. That's why it's an exception.

I will agree with you that many writers here would do well to look within themselves, see how they might be able to improve, and then attempt to do so, but their improvement at writing won't magically make their readers improve at voting.

The stories here, for better or worse, do not become what they are purely by the efforts of the person writing them, but also by the efforts of the people reading and voting in them. If things are to improve, then both sides have to do their part to make it happen.
You can't expect a writer's improvement to fix bad voters, just as you can't expect a voter's improvement to fix bad writing.

Like it or not, we're all in this shit together, and whether we're writing a story or voting in one, we all have room for improvement, and if we want things to get better, we all need to improve in one way or another.
No. 4474
>>4472
>That isn't what you said at >>4414.
I can't seem to see where I said a writer can't tell if there's something wrong with their own writing.

>You mention here that you're getting "Zombie Votes," and that far from thinking "there's nothing wrong," you are dissatisfied with it. What I'm not clear about, however, is if you're asking for people to show more interest or if you're asking for criticism to improve your writing.

If it's the latter you want, you should specifically ask your readers to provide it. As I'm one of them, I can say something on that point--if you wish.

I had actually done this at a point in time in RiG. I added it below the votes, asking for criticism and thoughts on it so far. The following posts were just copy/pastes of the votes, although if I recall there was 1 post that did actually give some feedback.

I want to touch a bit on the topic of The Game. It's been mentioned in here a few times already, and while I will admit it is a really nice CYOA that (as far as I know) was written in a way no one else has really done before...

I think it's a bit unfair to imagine that now The Game has become some kind of standard that must be met in order for a CYOA to be considered good. The Game was a nice CYOA yes, but I have to think a part of its success not only came from the writer, but due to the format. The Game was written from the viewpoint of Kabuki, the whole thing was full of odd writing and the way everything just kind of flowed I guess. Even the votes were very strange, and unless you could decipher the meaning behind them, you couldn't really be sure of what you were voting on.

Fell seemed to have somehow found the fine line of vagueness and uncertainty that is allowed in a CYOA's vote options. You can't really expect every writer to be able to think up odd vote choices that are somehow references to something that will reveal what their intent is. I personally had not voted in The Game, though I did read it, because I really couldn't ever figure out what the votes really meant.

There's also the fact I'm a writer, who likes to not turn off their trip just because I'm posting outside RiG, but that's another matter.
No. 4475
>I wonder if I'd get lynched if I devoted the next 5+ updates to my /sdm/ story instead
No you won't. I would support this.
No. 4476
>Case in point: ANY instance where a "route" in one story is brought up and used to justify a particular course of action in a separate and completely unrelated story written by a completely different writer.

>When the stories themselves feature different settings, different interpretations of the characters, and different plots, to the point that even if you had the exact same Touhou as the central character the stories would still be nothing alike, there is no way you can blame the writers or their hang-ups on shit like that. That sort of thing is purely the product of the voter's side, and I can guarantee that even if every single writer on this site improved in the ways you think they should while the voters stayed right where they are, this sort of thing would still happen.

Perhaps that's the case, but folks don't want a bunch of say Remilia stories while basically justifying vicious running gags like "No Sakuya routes allowed" or "No Reisen routes allowed"

That's similar to how dead some boards are and gags like "No one updates in shrine or eientei"

Ideally this wouldn't be an issue, but it kinda is an issue because of all the people dropping stories like a pigeon drops shit on freshly washed cars. As a result, people try to take what they can. Ideally, there's more than one run allowing whatever girl didn't win to get a chance. the ideal and the reality couldn't be more different.

And there's the fact that some renditions of a character are strictly by the numbers standard despite what the writer insists.

Also there's often underlying elements behind route shitstorms, either caused by polarizing choices, story structure that basically gives one shot at a route, and/or mindsets of the camps.
No. 4478
>Zombie Voting
For someone who gets this a fair number of times, it doesn't always bother me. Yes, it is disheartening to see that there's a lack of discussion (even if I put in a few instances that could spark it). However, since I hardly update, I feel that it's at least something telling me that there are some folks still interested in what I write.

RAoM seems to get the 'lack of discussion' deal alot, but Metal Touhou gets a fair amount of discussion (sometimes). Like I said though, I've gotten to the point where a simple vote is really all I need to know that at least someone gives a shit.

As a voter (even though I hardly vote, I'll admit), I usually try to add a bit of a comment to what I'm voting for, if even to state what's already been said.

>some authors treated
I know I can place most of the blame for this on myself for not writing more, and always disappearing without saying anything, so I don't really mind if people go with the 'writemorenigger' thing. It serves as a reminder that "Oh shit, I forgot to write that day." Yeah, sure it's crude, but hey...sometimes you forget and need reminding.

Maybe this is a bad mentality on my part, but it's how I see things from my stand point as a writer.

>The Game
I'll admit, I haven't read nor voted in this story. Not once. From what I hear about it though, it's a well recieved CYOA. One that goes far beyond anything I could produce, that's for sure. But, it's a bit of a stretch to compare The Game to every other story we have here. True some of us (myself icluded) may not be up to par with The Game on writing standard, but every other story has it's own style to it that makes it different from The Game entirely. Sure, it may not be the same thing that makes The Game popular
No. 4479
I am a part of the problematic anons mentioned in the OP. My english is pretty horrible so I feel that I shouldn't do any write-ins, the few times I tried to do them ended up bad. The zombievote method is the only way I express my support to the writers. I'm sorry for that.

I also feel I have rather different tastes from majority of readers here. I dislike the h-scenes and fight scenes in alot of stories, but most others seem to like them alot. I stopped voting against them and voicing my opinion about them after a while.

About the camping issue: I don't personally do it but I guess alotta people read the stories for a chance to see their favourite touhou do stuff. It makes sense then to care less about the story if it takes the "route" of another toho and their favorites are left in the dark. Come to think about it I hate the idea of routes aswell.
No. 4483
>>4473
>You claim that things like this so-called "zombie voting" or the tendency of some voters in certain stories to divide themselves into factions are not really problems, because such things are simply the result of writers not being good enough, but don't realize they simply aren't good enough because they're blinded by some sense of entitlement, and if they would just try to make themselves good enough these "alleged" problems would simply go away?

That sounds about right. Do you deny that there’s a general tendency among authors to deride the contributions of their readers and to believe that their stories deserve attention and discussion because they’re doing “something for nothing” (never mind that this isn’t really true, and that what they’re actually looking for is affirmation)?

>What about the people who aren't writers who also consider those things to be problems?
They’re in a position where they can do their best to support the author, but that’s all. The one who has the most power to change his story if he doesn’t like the direction in that it’s headed or the customs of the people voting in it is the writefag, and if he doesn’t take measures himself, then he shouldn’t have any expectation that his readers will take the initiative.

>I won't deny that some things from the writer's side contribute, but to suggest that the voter's side doesn't also play a part is absolutely ridiculous, as is your belief that it's just the writer who has to change things for the problems to go away.

Why is it ridiculous? Let me repeat: show me an outstanding story that has any of what Storyteller identifies as endemic “problems.”

>As a voter myself, I am utterly baffled at how you can look at some of the behaviors on this side and NOT think that there are some things in dire need of improvement from us.

There’s no point in talking about these “improvements,” because they’ll never be realized unless the author first changes himself—and if he does change himself, then they’ll follow naturally.

>Case in point: ANY instance where a "route" in one story is brought up and used to justify a particular course of action in a separate and completely unrelated story written by a completely different writer.

So wait. People lament about how there isn’t enough engagement, but complain when they actually receive it?

>When the stories themselves feature different settings, different interpretations of the characters, and different plots, to the point that even if you had the exact same Touhou as the central character the stories would still be nothing alike, there is no way you can blame the writers or their hang-ups on shit like that.

I’m not “blaming” anyone, but I’d like to make the case that the “problem” you have highlighted is a simple issue of characterization. When your take on the characters has nothing in the way of interesting backgrounds, compelling motivations or memorable dialogue, it’s a matter of course that the readers would make comparisons to a story that does.

>So then, how can that possibly be a fair or reasonable basis for comparison in regards to these problems that are, in part, due to the readers/voters following them?

You’re missing the big picture here. Let’s leave aside the Game for a second. None of the best stories in the history of the site (are you going to try and make another case to relative quality and say that there aren’t any stories that can be recognized as brilliant?) are alike in how they’re written or the tastes to that they cater. All of them are free from or have only minimal interference from the “problems” that Storyteller has highlighted. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

>Just because there's an exception to the norm does not mean that norm doesn't exist. That's why it's an exception.

The exception can become the norm if people would stop expecting the same treatment afforded to the exceptional to be extended to the mediocre, and work to become exceptional themselves.

>I will agree with you that many writers here would do well to look within themselves, see how they might be able to improve, and then attempt to do so, but their improvement at writing won't magically make their readers improve at voting.

>You can't expect a writer's improvement to fix bad voters, just as you can't expect a voter's improvement to fix bad writing.

Except the two parties aren’t on equal footing here. An improvement in the voters doesn’t mean anything if the author is an Owen or Tetrominon, while an improvement in the writer is necessary before there can be any improvement in the readers.

>we all have room for improvement, and if we want things to get better, we all need to improve in one way or another.

I agree--with the caveat that this improvement begins with the body of authors setting an example themselves. Outside of how they handle their own work, if they don’t recommend each others’ stories, don’t read or vote in each others’ stories and never ask for criticism, why should they have any expectation that their readers will do the same?
No. 4484
>>4483

>I agree--with the caveat that this improvement begins with the body of authors setting an example themselves. Outside of how they handle their own work, if they don’t recommend each others’ stories, don’t read or vote in each others’ stories and never ask for criticism, why should they have any expectation that their readers will do the same?

In this spirit, I try to read new stories whenever I can. Similarly, I contribute recommendations whenever I can.

To sum up the points of this thread simply it seems:

We need more enthusiastic voters and readers. We also need more dedicated and reliable writers.
No. 4485
>>4474
>I can't seem to see where I said a writer can't tell if there's something wrong with their own writing.

See: "If all a writer gets is votes with no comments, they can only think there's nothing wrong."

>I had actually done this at a point in time in RiG.

Did you? Would you mind helping me find it? I don't seem to remem-

>a point

Oh, that's why. Listen--if you really want it, you need to be more forceful in asking. Post something to that effect in your thread and I'll see what I can do.

>I think it's a bit unfair to imagine that now The Game has become some kind of standard that must be met in order for a CYOA to be considered good.

Why is it "unfair" when it has the distinction of being the most successful and highest quality of all the recent stories?

>The Game was written from the viewpoint of Kabuki, the whole thing was full of odd writing and the way everything just kind of flowed I guess.

Have you never encountered good stream of conscious narrative before?

>Even the votes were very strange, and unless you could decipher the meaning behind them, you couldn't really be sure of what you were voting on.

I'm not sure I understand the basis of your criticism when it makes perfect sense in character and is an excellent device for encouraging the readers to think about their choices.

>You can't really expect every writer to be able to think up odd vote choices that are somehow references to something that will reveal what their intent is.

Why not? I don't mean the Game-style votes specifically, but the spirit behind them--why shouldn't I demand the same ingenuity and attention to detail from other authors?

>I personally had not voted in The Game, though I did read it, because I really couldn't ever figure out what the votes really meant.

I don't mean to be harsh in saying this, but when you can't be bothered to figure out what a vote means and vote yourself in the stories that you read, how can you justifiably level the very same criticism at your readers?

>There's also the fact I'm a writer, who likes to not turn off their trip just because I'm posting outside RiG, but that's another matter.

What does this have to do with anything?
No. 4486
>>4485

I'm not Kriss, but I do understand a bit of where she's coming from with this.

>Why is it "unfair" when it has the distinction of being the most successful and highest quality of all the recent stories?

It'd be very unpleasant if anyone who didn't meet the same standards as Fell was considered a bad writer, because frankly, the man is a genius very few of us can hope imitate.

>Why not? I don't mean the Game-style votes specifically, but the spirit behind them--why shouldn't I demand the same ingenuity and attention to detail from other authors?

Because most of us couldn't deliver that. Frankly, we try, or at least I try, but it's not easy. It's a delicate balance, and when it comes out wrong it ends up just plain cryptic.

This specific example is starting to remind me of Osamu Tezuka.
No. 4487
>>4478
>Yes, it is disheartening to see that there's a lack of discussion (even if I put in a few instances that could spark it).

The reason that they don't "spark it" is because they're not interesting or clear enough to your readers. Your views have become divorced from their views because you don't participate from their perspective. Can you really say that you know what will rouse them to action when you "hardly vote" yourself?

>One that goes far beyond anything I could produce, that's for sure.

You shouldn't be saying this unless you have read it and honestly feel this way. Isn't mindlessly repeating other peoples' opinions the very same "Zombie Voting" that you find as "disheartening?"

>But, it's a bit of a stretch to compare The Game to every other story we have here.

I'm not talking about the specifics of what it does so much as the guiding principles behind its success, which can be distilled and applied to any story on the site if the author is willing to learn.

>True some of us (myself icluded) may not be up to par with The Game on writing standard, but every other story has it's own style to it that makes it different from The Game entirely.

I don't dispute this. The few stories that belong in the canon of THP are all written differently, have completely different premises and (for the most part) focus on entirely different casts of characters. If you're being truly original, it's never a hindrance as long as your ability is an equal of your ambitions.
No. 4488
I get this distinct feeling now that every writer is going to leave because they're not up to par with The Game, simply because it's the "new standard" now.

Let's just name the site thegame-project.com while we're at it.

...heh.
No. 4489
>>4488

That's just being pointlessly negative and inflammatory. Let's keep a lid on that for now, if we can.
No. 4491
>>4489
It kinda has a point though. Especially from a writer's standpoint. If you're only going to see that level of involvement if you can write at or above the level of 'The Game', then what's to keep you writing? Even writers who have interesting ideas who take stories in directions that most people don't expect, but have flaws in their presentation, why shouldn't they be able to get the acclaim that 'The Game' gets?

I had a point here somewhere, but I think I lost it somewhere along the line.
No. 4493
Thing is you don't have to be mindblowingly good to be able to spark discussion (see Lion, AGLA anon)

But Fell is something of a rare example of writer when worked on it, reliable, consist ant, and not so needy.

This isn't so hard to do.

And to be honest the "weird choice" matter only worked for The Game due to how quirky Kogasa was in it. It's annoying when someone tries to half-ass imitate it for no reason than be cool.

>>4491
Maybe they're not sure if the story will last, and the more they hear the writer bawl about things like attention, the less sure they get. It wouldn't hurt those who want more attention to see stories that do get it and figure out what to do. You never hear folks like Glasnost, Norseman, Lion among a few of name of folks who don't whine about attention.
No. 4494
>>4491
>If you're only going to see that level of involvement if you can write at or above the level of 'The Game', then what's to keep you writing?

When you're writing a story with this kind of mentality, you're already doing it wrong. If you want to be successful, you should rid yourself of this brand of self-absorbed, self-defeating apathy and just write—focus on constantly improving and telling your story in the best way possible.

>Even writers who have interesting ideas who take stories in directions that most people don't expect, but have flaws in their presentation, why shouldn't they be able to get the acclaim that 'The Game' gets?

Because acclaim is something you earn, not something you deserve.
No. 4495
>>4485
>Oh, that's why. Listen--if you really want it, you need to be more forceful in asking. Post something to that effect in your thread and I'll see what I can do.

I have considered this. Such as putting it at the start and end of the update, in bold lettering. But then I feel like I'm making too big a deal about it. Compared to most author's on this site, I'm not in a very good position.

My background as a writer and a person, is based upon a number of sites that are very taboo in THP. Even some of my friends have admitted that, when they first saw me, their instinct was to drive me off.

>Why is it "unfair" when it has the distinction of being the most successful and highest quality of all the recent stories?

Perhaps this is only something I see but, I think it's unfair to think that the latest, greatest thing is now the standard. If you can't write to The Game's standards, you shouldn't be writing kind of idea.

I already suffer from a self-induced inferiority thing. I always compare my works to very famous or very successful authors. I am rarely ever pleased with my own work, and I'm needlessly nitpicky about things. The last thing I need on my mind is thinking, "If I can't write something as good as The Game, I shouldn't be writing..."

>Have you never encountered good stream of conscious narrative before?

First person? I've never tried it, though I'm attempting in a short that will probably not be seen but... I find it exceedingly difficult. This is likely due to my familiarity with 2nd person now, and that it feels like 1st can only start with an 'I' or 'my', or some such.

>I'm not sure I understand the basis of your criticism when it makes perfect sense in character and is an excellent device for encouraging the readers to think about their choices.

This seems to be a oddity for The Game. At least from what I hear anon is generally very cautious. They hate making decisions without knowing what they will cause. They fear possible repercussions from their actions. The Game had very vague votes that you couldn't figure out unless you could decipher the meaning behind them, yet somehow, Fell made them obscure and odd enough to be appealing. It's a mystery to me.

>Why not? I don't mean the Game-style votes specifically, but the spirit behind them--why shouldn't I demand the same ingenuity and attention to detail from other authors?

I find it's unfair personally. I don't have the cultural knowledge or whatever to be able to think up obscure, odd votes that are still easy to figure out. My realm of knowledge is in video games, and they don't make very good things to reference too often.

>I don't mean to be harsh in saying this, but when you can't be bothered to figure out what a vote means and vote yourself in the stories that you read, how can you justifiably level the very same criticism at your readers?

I don't vote in CYOAs for the flak you tend to get for voting with a trip. I don't really like the whole idea that "If you're a writer, you're not allowed to express your opinion" without getting flak for it.

I might be misinformed, but generally it's assumed the only acceptable way to vote is to do it anon.

>>4487
>The reason that they don't "spark it" is because they're not interesting or clear enough to your readers. Your views have become divorced from their views because you don't participate from their perspective. Can you really say that you know what will rouse them to action when you "hardly vote" yourself?

I can't say with certainity, but I've peeked into other CYOAs before. And sometimes anon will pick on some tiny, little detail in the update that seems pointless but they seem able to think it's important.

And when I attempt that in RiG, though making it somewhat more obvious, I don't ever see a reaction to it. I'm almost convinced the only way I can get anon's attention is if something happened directly to Reina or some such. Like that the plot has to jump out, wave a knife in her face and scream at her before it'll get noticed.

>You shouldn't be saying this unless you have read it and honestly feel this way. Isn't mindlessly repeating other peoples' opinions the very same "Zombie Voting" that you find as "disheartening?"

Oh but I have read The Game. I like it quite a lot, and I don't harbor my own delusions that I could match it. I do however possess rather low self-esteem.

>I'm not talking about the specifics of what it does so much as the guiding principles behind its success, which can be distilled and applied to any story on the site if the author is willing to learn.

To me I view what made The Game so successful was that it was so... different. I don't believe there had been a first person-based CYOA written in quite that format, nor many of its oddities. But now if you try to do it, you're kind of copying off it. It's difficult to make something completely original.
No. 4496
>>4483
It seems like one of the things we can agree on is that any improvements in any story have to be born from the author's side. But that's about it.

Reader participation in enacting change is just as important. For the most part, the stories on these boards are interactive. Oftentimes this means that readers have the ability to interject with variations on votes and write-ins. This is not something that can easily discarded as irrelevant as you seem to be doing. To be sure, authors can disregard variations from the narrative he wants to follow but that then is more akin to a traditional story than a CYOA. And that may or may not work for any of the parties.

There have been examples cited earlier and, I've never asked him specifically about this so excuse me if I'm presuming too much, HY seemed to exemplify this disconnect. Arguably his stories would fall into your 'good' (or was it the arrogantly-defined 'brilliant'?) category. Writer changes and dictation did not mean that the reader base followed. Now I'm sure that you'll bite back saying something along the lines that he didn't take as much control as he should have but I must emphasize again that that's a one-sided point of view about interactive stories.

In order for a story to be the best it can be, both reader and writer have to actively improve it. I am confident that I'll not be in your 'outstanding' category (claimed to be an objective truth when the history of literature, hell humanity, has shown that things are quintessentially subjective). That in itself is fine and I won't point you exclusively to my efforts and engagement with my readers and how that's changed things mostly for the better; Ancient Gensokyo is a solid example in which smart (mostly) and deliberate voters steer the story into an enjoyable direction.

Now I realize that the response to this would be stating that this couldn't be this way unless the author made an effort to make it so, and as I stated first I agree, but think about what would happen if these readers didn't act this way. If for every important scene or important vote they went with the simplistic and inane. Or, heaven forbid, someone consistently voted in a way that was entirely counterproductive and that resulted in bandwagoning. Sound familiar? The efforts of authors, in interactive stories, are only as successful as the reader base allows it to be. Standards work both ways.

Yeah, I feel that we may be agreeing here somewhat but what bothers me is how quickly you're dismissing points by claiming 'bad characterization' or stories otherwise not fitting into a narrow category defined by yourself. I'll have to question phrases used like 'guiding principles' and your claims that none of the 'canon' has had any of the issues brought up. People are divided into camps, people do not care to put an extra minute or two into thinking their vote, or not vote at all. Everyone will have a different way of dealing with this but to pretend that somehow there are a few stories that are free of blemishes is disingenuous.

As is the claim that these problems are illusory and somehow instead the fault of authors that are more preocuppied with getting attention than making something memorable. Actually, it's more insulting than anything. I can't speak for everyone on this site but I can speak for a few that I know. These writers write because they think they have a story worth sharing, ideas that are entertaining and worthwhile. There may be those that need their hands held and constantly reaffirmed but I believe that the majority does not. The joy of writing, the joy of touhou or really just the joy of fun is enough to drive them on. Complaints are leveled not because they are not placed on pedestals and worshiped but because it is difficult to tell just how much the audience is enjoying itself in the interactive tale. The internet is impersonal and the only way of assessing that sort of thing is via active participation. I'm not saying that I fully agree with all the points raised in this thread, nor by storyteller, necessarily and am venturing forth and saying that things are not as simplistic as you would have them be nor is brilliance and mediocrity so easily categorized on the basis of one side in this storytelling medium.

>>4457
It's hard to get an exact figure. Things like hits don't take into account wgets and uniques are unreliable with dynamic ips. One of these days I'll collate data into a comprehensive summary.

>>4470
He was right on the money about it though

>>4454
The reason I asked you to stop reading was the combination of dismissive commentary about author reader engagement, sometime annoyingly oblivious posts and the fact that everywhere I went on the site you kept bringing what I wrote in a purely negative and simplistic fashion. There is evidence that two out of three of those things have been corrected but then there's stuff like
>Maybe they're not sure if the story will last, and the more they hear the writer bawl about things like attention, the less sure they get. It wouldn't hurt those who want more attention to see stories that do get it and figure out what to do. You never hear folks like Glasnost, Norseman, Lion among a few of name of folks who don't whine about attention.
It seems to be a recurring theme to equate various forms of communication with whining. Some of it is, but not all of it is.

I don't mind you reading anything I write if you won't make sweeping and often unfounded generalizations about things. It just otherwise feels like there's no getting through.

>>4484
>We need more enthusiastic voters and readers. We also need more dedicated and reliable writers.
One usually begets the other. I like to believe that those who read a story already have some enthusiasm for it. It's a matter of reaching an understanding. Reciprocal standards.

I guess what I'd have to say is the main issue that should be addressed is reader fluidity. More people need to try new stuff. Authors need to participate in other stories as well. The site is a better place when everyone is engaged.

That and we probably could do with more people joining us.
No. 4497
>More people need to try new stuff. Authors need to participate in other stories as well. The site is a better place when everyone is engaged.

This.

But there's a difference between communicating and what amounts to crying for attention. It's tone, and Kriss' tone is needy and begging. Not to mention she missed some of the response posts to the talk about the game.
No. 4501
>>4421

I don't usually comment on threads of this nature, but I have to say that I am so down with what this post says, it's like a porn movie.

Continue.
No. 4505
File 127373312052.jpg - (924.13KB , 768x1024 , Sunshine in a bag and flowers in hand.jpg ) [iqdb]
4505
It has come to my attention that apparently I am fucking brilliant and my story is being talked about so goddamn much on here like I am actually some hotshot author or something what the fuck

Okay. If all of you love me so much and worship the ground I walk on, then please, for the love of god, if you take nothing else away from this thread, take this:
>>4496
>>We need more enthusiastic voters and readers. We also need more dedicated and reliable writers.
>One usually begets the other. I like to believe that those who read a story already have some enthusiasm for it. It's a matter of reaching an understanding. Reciprocal standards.
>I guess what I'd have to say is the main issue that should be addressed is reader fluidity. More people need to try new stuff.
These would solve a huge damned chunk of what people complain about.

Writers:
You want more votes, more press, more respect, more voters, more readers? Update often and regularly, and you will have more voters closely following behind.
If you are feeling miserable or depressed, talk to a therapist or at least somebody reliable who is not involved with the situation and can look at it objectively. Depression of one sort or another seems to plague a lot of our writers, and to lose them to this seems like such a goddamn shame that it makes me angry.

Readers:
You want more interesting stories, more new and unusual things, and an overall better experience? Go to the other goddamn boards and read what is there, or look through the archives. But don't just stay in one or two goddamn boards and then complain about it.
Quit telling yourself that all the other stories are boring, or that you just don't much care for characters from whatever area or board. Fuck that. Go expand your horizons.

Now, since you all know I'm brilliant, you know what to go and do, now.
No. 4514
>>4505
>Go expand your horizons.
The many new stories left me confused. What do you recommend?
No. 4516
It's pretty sad that after everything that was said in this thread, Dr. Q was the only one who could spare the effort to recommend something he liked.
No. 4518
>>4514
Glasnost's stories on /sdm/ and /underground/, although the former is on pause and his update speed is glacial.
"A Fairy's Tale" on /sdm/
"Fragmentation of Memories" on /youkai/
"Mind the Gap" on /at/
"The Idea of Alice" on /sdm/
Unbounded's story on /th/
"Let's gooooo" on /others/
"A Certain Devilish Library" on /sdm/
"Gensokyo Futures" on /th/

if/when they ever update again:
"Contemplations Under the Moon and Stars" on /eientei/
"Hakugyokuro LA" on /border/
"Touhou: Graze the Rainbow" on /th/
"Restoration of Temporal Sensations" on /th/
No. 4520
>>4518

There's an actual thread for those, still.
No. 4521
>>4520
In fact it happens to be right underneath this one currently.
No. 4522
>>4411
>Where an option will be chosen and then 5-10 exact clones
>5-10
By youkai Jesus, if anything in this thread were to annoy me, it's this.

I WISH I got 5 votes an update.

Secondly,
>people gettin' mad at being called [noun|verb|adjective]niggers
The oldest people in our little caravan of laser spam and fapfics are from 4chan. We treat "fag" as if it meant "person." If you are taking this as an insult of any kind then you are taking the Internet too seriously and need to lighten up. No one is actually referencing negative racial stereotypes.

>>4495
>I don't believe there had been a first person-based CYOA written in quite that format
Stream of consciousness and unreliable narrator? There was, about five months earlier. With just the former trait, there are more examples.
No. 4524
>>4505
>Quit telling yourself that all the other stories are boring, or that you just don't much care for characters from whatever area or board

But they are boring, and I don't like those characters, why are you telling people to read things they don't like?
No. 4525
>>4524
>But they are boring
You can only make this claim if you've actually read them. For the majority of posters and the majority of stories, this is not the case.

>and I don't like those characters
Generally irrelevant when portrayals vary as much as they do in Touhou.
No. 4526
>>4505
>It has come to my attention that apparently I am fucking brilliant and my story is being talked about so goddamn much on here like I am actually some hotshot author or something what the fuck

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Link relevant to all authors.
No. 4527
>>4526

They actually have a name for that? Wow.
No. 4528
>Update often and regularly, and you will have more voters closely following behind.

For god's sake, this. If a story doesn't update frequently, I don't bother with it. It doesn't matter how high-quality the story is or how much you've got planned for it or how well-done the characters are, if you don't update quickly I don't give a shit.
No. 4529
>>4528
What's your definition of "frequently?"
No. 4530
The planets must have aligned or something, because HY has come back from the dead and is currently writing a new story on the SDM board at tengu speed.
No. 4531
>>4529
I'm interested in this as well. We all can agree that glasnost is slow and HY is fast; where does the middle ground fall these days?
No. 4535
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4535
>>4530
No. 4536
>>4531
You seem to forget his post SDMLA speed, which was more on par with Glasnost's. If he even goes a quarter as fast as this, it'll be nice.
No. 4538
>>4531

I really have to take a look at Glasnost's threads. I thought I was the slowest.

Also what is with people complaining about "get back to work nigger"?
Really, it's encouragement, not belittlement. It's people jokingly telling you they want you to keep writing. Anyone getting pissy about it is taking this shit way too seriously.

I had other things to say but I forgot so yeah.
No. 4540
>>4535

Hey, I miss your story you wrote in Eientei.

Do you ever think you'll take up the reins and start it back up at some point?
No. 4541
>>4540

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. I'd sooner see Scorn or Taisa writing again than that story resuming.

I never imagined HY would start writing against before Taisa did, that's for certain
No. 4544
>>4540
what did you like about it?
No. 4545
>>4544

It was a nice litte WUiG style story that had a French MC who seemed to have the Nine Squad captivated by his language. Teaching Mystia to sing Alouette was probably one of my favorite parts.

Storyteller said something about revamping the plot because he hadn't expected the story to last so long, but then he just stopped writing for some reason.
No. 4560
>>4526
Holy shit, I must be a genius writer then!














Too bad that I don't see it in the least, and those who proof my stuff frequently point out everything that I'm doing wrong. Which is quite a bit. :/
No. 4564
>>4560
the same is easily said of the insanely praised of SDMLA. Don't be so hard on yourself. But it's a fact that many talented writers here generally think they're crap and some of the shitty ones thought they were good.
No. 4575
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4575
>>4560
>>4564
It should be noted (though I would've thought it obvious) that psychology is a soft science.

One of the softest.
No. 4576
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4576
>>4575
Psychology is actually one of the 'hardest' of the social sciences, thanks to the lasting influence of behaviorism. Contrast with, say, anthropology, where it's basically impossible to do any actual experiments for fear of 'disrupting indigenous societies' or whatnot.

Posting the hardest Touhou to remain relevant to /gensokyo/.
No. 4577
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4577
>>4575
What are you talking about? I swear, you're as naive as a child! Psychology is hard, as hard a science as they come! If you don't have the stamina to explore the psyche’s most intimate regions, how can you hope to penetrate the mysteries of life and love at great length? Only with thorough experimentation and vigorous trials can one hope to enter the most private sanctums of the mind, heart, and body, for each fuels the other and is given refreshment in turn. Psychology must be solid and firm like a husband's will, yet tight and supple like a wife's patience. It must ebb and flow with the tides of human emotion, yet stand erect against the torrent of man's skepticism.

>>4576
This fine person understands the thrust of the matter!
No. 4580
>>4576
That's like saying this stale marshmallow is the hardest of all my marshmallows
No. 4581
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4581
>>4576
>Psychology is actually one of the 'hardest' of the social sciences

Basically, what >>4580 said

All social sciences are soft as downy pillows.

Point being, psychology doesn't have rules so much as it has tendencies.
No. 4588
>>4577
Koishi should teach more. I'm sure her class would be on the edge of their seats.
No. 4589
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4589
>>4577
>tight and supple like a wife's patience
I'm not really sure what this is supposed to mea--OHH.
No. 4603
>>4564
There's still instances of writers averting this fact though, but for probably good reason. A lot of these writers are among the low tiers, where their work is never mentioned but anon puts up with them anyways and doesn't chase them out, since they're not "horrible." These writers still tend to think they're crap because they never get any praise or mention.

There's probably a ton of writers like this that have come and gone, and are probably still writing today, despite never once being thanked or appreciated.

Truly, a thankless job.