[Return]
Archived Thread

File 126576400042.jpg - (57.57KB , 816x637 , HeresFlaninMysticChain.jpg ) [iqdb]
3545 No. 3545
I was thinking about the various traditions this site has followed and I came to realize something that occurs with any tradition: Stagnation caused by following it too closely. Stories like SDM LA and FLA blazed the path for many modern stories, but regardless of the fond memories we might have of them, they were not perfect and had elements that could stand to be expanded, refined, and improved upon. Some people have realized this but when they tried, were hindered by Anon thinking too much in the past. In contrast, some writers seemed insistant upon the old ways and ended up frustrated by Anon's timidity. Anon today seems to commonly hang on to old cliches and tropes very hard as a result of how older stories went in addition to typical western thinking.
This is indeed something I've realized recently: Anon is in the habit of projecting their protestant-based believes on to a world which is neither western or modern. This came up in AGLA somewhat recently with the Yuyuko Scene as a few Anon objected badly due to the belief that sex is bad. There's said to be many factors behind that line of thinking: Western beliefs, which includes 'porn is not art'. Other factors include, certain stories on this site which basically punished anon for pursuing sex, even if it's just Anon that believes that. Last would be VN cliches and tropes. At one time, they were the backbone of stories. What has happened here is that instead of growing beyond them, Anon and some writers have chained themselves to VN standards, never thinking of going beyond them.
You might want to ask yourself why writers such as HY go on hiatus. Why? Because it might be possible that when they tried to break the old mold themselves, they were stymied by Anon's rigid attitude about things.
Two stories currently are trying to break the mold currently: Mind the gap in /at/ and Ancient Gensokyo Limited Adventure in /th/. The first is mainly a sex based adventure with a plot. It's more character based than a typical story, and it hasn't run into too many problems with Anon so far. It's been said that Fairy Maid in /sdm/ was intended to be such a story if not for Anon's stubbornness in regards to sex.
AGLA, on the other hand, has had to go through these cliches the hard way with scenes like the Love Scene with Yuyuko and the scene of Mima's breakdown. The last one is a result of thinking purely in VN terms as opposed to more sensible ones.
The point I'm trying to make is that if we're to grow and prosper in the future, we must go beyond the old standards and cliches. If both the writers and Anon do this, things will be enjoyable for both parties.
To writers, Improve upon the old good elements, try to push the genre beyond its VN roots. Most importantly, do not perpetuate the flaws of the old. Just because old stories were bad end minefields and you needed leap of faith to get stronger does not mean doing so is the best path.
To my fellow Anon, realize that some writers are not doing the same old same old. Gensokyo is not 21st century America or Europe, and as such a sex scene is not the end of the world. And while the classics are great in their own right, they are not the End All Be All of CYOAs; If you want stories as good or better than them, you've got to think beyond the terms of the past.
I sincerely hope that someone seriously considers the points in this post. It's good to follow tradition, but if you follow it too much, it'll become a coffin. As for the picture? It's not related at all.

>> No. 3546
...wait, is this entire post about sex? I mean, I thought you were going to pull out all sorts of things about breaking out of molds and whatnot, but all you're talking about is sex.
>> No. 3547
>>3546
Well, it doesn't seem entirely about sex. Sure, a portion of it IS about sex, but I believe the gist of OP is that tradition is a bitch, and while it's good, it shouldn't bog us down.
>> No. 3548
Use proper spacing between paragraphs. It makes your post more presentable and accessible.

Personally, I dislike sex for the sake of sex. That is to say smut that contributes little to plot and character development. I don't know if it's because I have easy access to porn but I cringe when a story is little more than one sexual exploit after another. If I'm going to spend time reading something or more time writing something I'd like something a bit better than the cheap thrill and novelty a lot of such scenes give.

Sex isn't something strange, on the contrary it's a very natural thing. But unless it's used as a storytelling element I would prefer it to be implicit.

As for cliches and 'breaking the mold'; I think it's important that people begin to judge everything on its own. I don't think the problem of cliches is something that worrisome. Tropes and cliches lend familiarity and, used properly, can strengthen narrative. Trying to think in VN terms makes manageability easier, while not doing so grants more freedom. It's a question of format that should be obvious to all who participate in a story.

I think though that the userbase of this site may be a little picky. Not even in the quality control sense (that would be welcome). Ultimately the purpose of any story, whether it adheres to tradition or not, is to be enjoyable to read (and write!). I feel that people have lost sight of that and stick to their guns choice-wise and in actually following a story.
>> No. 3549
Summarization:

-Stagnation is caused by following to closely in the molds of stories that were imperfect in the first place, including previous stories' cliches and tropes, some of which show evidence of distinctly western thought.
-A Protestant-based mentality is often superimposed upon these stories.
--For example, the pursuit of sex is often punished.
--Also, writers follow too closely the structure of visual novels.
-Perhaps writers go on hiatus because they are discouraged by their audiences' rigid way of thinking.
-Two stories are currently "breaking the mold", however.
--Mind The Gap is a sex-based adventure with a plot.
---Fairy Maid would have been like this the audience hadn't been so stubborn in not wanting sex.
--AGLA has gone through visual novel cliches.
-We must break past tropes and cliches.
-Writers should leave the visual novel and old stories' roots behind.
-The audience should encourage more sex.
>> No. 3550
>>3548
Sorry about that; I'll remember that in the future. I was referring to the few stories where that was the main direction as opposed to a more story based one. But I got a chance to talk with HY about Fairy Maid, and he remarked on how Anon read it as if it was a typical story, causing the process to become difficult. That was on my mind when I typed up the paragraph and as a result, the slant it took.

I'm a bit more liberal minded in terms of sex, sure I dislike purely pointless smut, but if it comes about as a moment of romance, I'd rather not skip it. As far as the Yuyuko Scene in AGLA went, it could have been skipped since its smut value was very low. Mind the Gap would not be your kind of story at all.

But I do feel that too many Anon and writers seem to believe tradition is the only way as opposed to breaking free. This wouldn't be a problem if the story wasn't marred by shitstorms and other messes resulting from this. Some stories are ill-suited for a pure VN frame work. As far as I can tell the latest crop of serious stories are going rather well in this, Fragment of Memories being a notable case despite its age. There is a romance angle but it's quite minor compared to the plot concerning Mikio's existence. I'll go more into this topic in a later post.

But the problem is how Anon applies VN thinking to everything. A scene in AGLA comes to mind where anon thought of a choice in VN terms, and as a result ends up leaving Mima before helping her, resulting in her breaking down. This devastated the Anons voting and at least for AGLA, those Anon stopped thinking in such terms. We should try to see if the story is different before assuming the VN line of thought. It would help if Writers made themselves clear on this matter as well what direction they're taking the story in general.

I'll remark on some of the common problems expressed by some people.Anon was rendered Timid by the mix of weak leads, bad end landmines, and having to do 'leaps of faith' to discover their power. Such leaps rarely end well and this leads me to the matter of bad ends.

Anon dislikes bad ends due to a mix of pride and fear that too many would cause the writer to go on hiatus in frustration. I cannot blame them considering the sheer amount of stories on permanent hiatus as well as what happened with HY's Fairy Maid.

Regarding the element of Plot discussion, give Anon the right amount of hints as to have them start discussion and speculating. If you give too much, they'll be stunned by the information. This happened in "A Flea in the Doghouse" somewhat recently, answering questions that anon had yet to even ask. None or too little, like in Spring/Storyteller's legionnaire story, and there's no discussion at all. And in WUiG style stories, if you're trying to do a major plot and expecting lots of discussion, you're doing it wrong.

Another problem I noticed is the big rush for plot. Some stories are slice of life in nature and such a rush would backfire. This was evident in I,Youkai when a timeskip resulted in missing out on meeting Mokou, Cirno and Tewi. There's no shame in smelling the flowers, especially if the writer went so far as to flesh out his vision of Gensokyo. In the end this varies from story to story.

Now I'll remark on a VN aspect: Routelocks. In stories with romantic routes, they are a must just due to how shitstorms errupt and how they can ruin things. The important factor is timing of the lock. If it's too early in a disputed story, anon will feel they got robbed. Too late and you might not have much of a working story left. It's also a good idea to work it in a way that makes sense in context of the story.

I mentioned beliefs because when a writer tries to write a story closer to the Japanese roots, such highly-western thinking will result in a shitstorm. This ultimately stifles future efforts by writers to progress.

One last thing is the matter of the writers themselves, mainly how clear they make things and communicating with Anon in general. Things are easier with you keep in touch with them and not post just to say "writing". This, I feel could avoid many misunderstandings.

>>3547
Correct you are, my good man.
>> No. 3551
ITT we summarize things everybody already knows. 'Anon dislikes bad ends'? 'Writers should communicate with their readers more'? Gasp!

>certain stories on this site which basically punished anon for pursuing sex
Can you give an example of one of these stories that started after 2008? Because the only one that comes to mind is J->E's story. Maybe I just don't read enough of THP, but it seems like this argument should have been put to bed long ago. Actually, the same goes for being "chained to VN standards"; could you give multiple concrete examples of what standards are being clung to, and how they're impacting stories detrimentally?

>But I got a chance to talk with HY about Fairy Maid, and he remarked on how Anon read it as if it was a typical story, causing the process to become difficult.
He really said that? It's not true. The last thing we did in that story was give Koakuma a blowjob, and there was a minor shitstorm in Fairy Maid's last thread because Anon didn't read it like a normal story and voted for something ridiculously out-of-character in the interest of getting to the sex faster.
>> No. 3552
>>3551

Not only did we give Koakuma a blowjob, but we rolled a critical success on sucking down succubus sperm. Sera was loving the sex. Which she never completely got around to. Poor Sera will forever feel the need to be filled. ;_;
>> No. 3553
>>3551

I was stating for general intents and in reference to Anon treating a not so typical story like a typical story. As for as stories that punished sex, There was DoLF1, where generally if you choose a choice that had some kind of sex or nudity, there would be a 99% chance it'd backfire. Do you not know the infamous "Eirin dick snapping scene"? That's basically almost as well known as SDM LA! There was the slight fiasco in HLA1 which was minor, but some anon wrongfully blame the sex scene as opposed to the true cause: Haku saying he loved her too early. And in AGLA, a few Anon shitstormed after the Yuyuko scene citing that since it had sex it can't be a serious story and other bullshit. In HLA2 a similar shitstorm came up in regards to a possible upcoming sex scene with Ran with much of the same reasoning and even HLA1's incident was referred to.

Shitstorms are a natural product of VN-based stories just due to the nature of choices which pitted character against character. And as I said earlier this very line of thinking resulted in a slight disaster in AGLA that was just fixed recently. Also HY did speak of attempts of the past to break the mold, even some of his own stories that ended up stymied by Anon's bull headed thinking. Chances are, since these were before 2008, you might have overlooked them seeing how most are on Hiatus. I'm thinking if DoLF1 might count as such a case since it had many VN elements, but nothing to keep things in line. It's not so much VN story structure that's harmful, but VN-style thinking outside of those stories that does the real damage.

>He really said that? It's not true. The last thing we did in that story was give Koakuma a blowjob, and there was a minor shitstorm in Fairy Maid's last thread because Anon didn't read it like a normal story and voted for something ridiculously out-of-character in the interest of getting to the sex faster.
He did indeed say that, and he specifically cited the rushed sex and out of character actions and the shitstorm about the sex. You can ask him yourself and he'd tell you basically the same thing.
>> No. 3554
>>3553
As you elaborate your argument I find myself disagreeing more and more. Let me take this point by point.

>There was DoLF1, where generally if you choose a choice that had some kind of sex or nudity, there would be a 99% chance it'd backfire

There was that scene, a scene with Aya (and further fondling), and a real sex scene. Plus further insinuations and implications. A conservative estimate would be 33% chance of backfire, but anyone with half a brain would see that it's much less actually.

>Haku saying he loved her too early
>other things about HLA
The problem with HLA was maybe that people started expecting too much from the sex. Maybe too little. People are quick to look for a bit of smut and quickly lose interest in thinking things through when it's not just that.

>Shitstorms are a natural product of VN-based stories just due to the nature of choices which pitted character against character.

I wholly disagree. Beside the fact that you're not clearly defining just what 'VN-based' means I'd like to say that there plenty of examples of actual VNs not having that sort of destructive attitude. There will always be people up in arms over their favorite characters, regardless of format of narrative. All that can be done is encourage civil discussion and keep things on-topic. Extremists are usually ignored or laughed away by the majority who simply enjoy a story.

> HY did speak of attempts of the past to break the mold, even some of his own stories that ended up stymied by Anon's bull headed thinking.

I'm not him but I get the impression that it was more than just being 'bull-headed'. It's about not knowing how to enjoy things and have fun. People are uptight about the wrong things and in my opinion I think that they should be able to appreciate fanfiction about magical little girls for what it is. Not everything is either serious business plot or to be taken lightly with stupid choices. Knowing how to have fun is important.

> Chances are, since these were before 2008, you might have overlooked them seeing how most are on Hiatus. I'm thinking if DoLF1 might count as such a case since it had many VN elements, but nothing to keep things in line.

I... what?
>> No. 3556
>>3545
>It's good to follow tradition, but if you follow it too much, it'll become a coffin.

I'm led to question this belief on the simple basis of looking at what's successful on this site. The most popular story at present:

- Has no overarching plot. The instance in which the author broached the question of introducing a plot was met with negative feedback.
- Is written in accordance with all of the "old cliches and tropes," as you have termed them.
- Deal chiefly in the characters that have always garnered the most focus.
- Is placed in a familiar setting.
- Possess a lead whose introspection and abilities are kept at a minimum.

This is a clear reflection of what draws readers and in evaluating others of the most successful stories (success being measured here as a function of readership) at present, they generally possess at least three of the aforementioned characteristics.

You would have to be a fool to write something that breaks with most of these and expect anything resembling success nonetheless, Wiseman. A fool, or just very strange.
>> No. 3557
>>3554
>there are plenty of examples of actual VNs not having that sort of destructive attitude.
Comparing what we have on THP to actual VNs is wrong in a wide variety of ways. Actually, of all the views put forth by the OP, this is the one that actually bears the most consideration: are routelocks (or, indeed, routes) necessary to keep Anon in line? Why does Anon shitstorm in some stories and not in others? It doesn't correlate with story popularity; Science LA was pretty much unanimous for Nitori route despite being one of the more popular stories at the time, and while there was certainly unrest in HLA1, it calmed down to a greater extent than GH has. It doesn't seem to correlate with character popularity; if memory serves, we were hooking up with Aya in GiG around the same time that the "ZUN's girlfriend" meme was in full swing. Quality of writing? There certainly weren't any (romance-related) shitstorms in RaAN. I'm at a loss.

>>3556
>You would have to be a fool to write something that breaks with most of these and expect anything resembling success
Say what? There are several stories on THP right now that break quite a few of those rules, and I wouldn't call them unsuccessful; The Game breaks all of them and is probably above the upper quartile in terms of votes received.

>Wiseman
Aww, you told on him. I was going to stay quiet, since he's been trying so hard lately not to be dumb.
>> No. 3558
>>3557
>Comparing what we have on THP to actual VNs is wrong in a wide variety of ways.

I'm >>3554 and I happen to agree. He's the one that brought up the VN analogy. To me something these stories are for the most part inherently more free form and greatly dependent on reader/author interaction. Other media do not present this kind of direct meeting between creative power and consumers.

I don't think that routelocks are strictly necessary to be honest. It depends on the style of the story first and foremost. Then again, I'm one of those people who doesn't think that things need to have a romantic route. Or at the very least the need of 'getting' a character shouldn't always be the primary focus. It is usually preferable to not go wandering all over the place though. As in, once a general direction has been decided upon we should be going aimlessly in other directions. I guess that's kind of a route lock but only in the broadest sense.

I think that people shouldn't obsess about shitstorms or no shitstorms. When passions flare on any side it's liable to happen, regardless of actual context. It's no use trying to reason something that's caused by the way some people feel or think. The best one can do is argue logically and not let things escalate. Authors are the biggest arbiters in their own stories and have the power to put a stop to anything, directly or indirectly. Failing that, there's always mods to keep things on-topic.

I was aware that this thread was made by wiseman, but he's not being too stupid. It's a valid discussion anyways.
>> No. 3559
>this thread was made by wiseman

That explains the OP post, thanks.
>> No. 3562
>>3557
>Are routelocks (or, indeed, routes) necessary to keep Anon in line?

No. Routes are contrived limitations that only exist because authors believe that's a way of giving their story narrative direction and/or because they aren't willing to think outside the bounds of what amounts to a programming restriction.

I know that might sound unfair, but really – have they been any better in actual practice? With the exception of a handful of talented writers who all navigated around the problem with a specific solution (more on that below), the system of routes and routelocks has consistently shown itself to be a burden on reader and author alike.

For you in the former category, I can’t understand why any of you would want routes or routelocks if you’re thinking people. They have had a history of either being set in a way that can’t be called anything except arbitrary (DoLF1, anyone) or artificially impeding your interactions with the cast.

Remember IPF? Remember how not a few people wanted to hang out some more with Kaguya or Sanae, but the dedicated voting for a “Satori route” robbed you of that chance? Was choosing in the context routes beneficial to you there?

Related – know why there’s not been a story to date (excuse me if I’m mistaken in this) with a focus on Meiling?

On Keine?

On any of the other characters you might call “neglected?”

It’s because of routes. Any story with Meiling is going to have Remilia and Flandre and any story with Keine’s probably going to feature Mokou too. By simple extrapolation of the respective characters’ popularity with relation to the others, anyone can see that the focus of the aforementioned stories on Remilia or Flandre or Mokou is a foregone conclusion (barring either a very strange premise or outright meddling from the author).

Why do you readers accept this kind of ridiculous restraint on your decisions – a manufactured hindrance that leaves so many of your number out in the cold?

For the latter group of authors, the initially-beneficial guidepost function of a route has precedent in becoming a chain as the story lengthens. You have only to look at Sanaek?'s repeated efforts at communicating to his readers "Don't ignore the rest of the cast for Aya only," to find a perfect example of this (To Sanaek?, if I have misunderstood your mindset, I ask in advance you pardon me for the error.)

And then there’s the case that everyone’s presently following. In GH, the tension between those readers with the unfathomable desire to have a routelock and those readers for whom the fear of a routelock (for a character they don’t like) looms with the ominous power of a narrative Sword of Damocles has birthed a vicious cycle of mindless, partisan voting – choices made (largely) on the basis of character loyalties alone and which ignore the story itself. Want proof?

Look at how many times Taisa has had to correct people about the age and appearance of a particular character. One of the most popular character, no less. What do you call this, if not “readers” disregarding or skimming the story? How do you think that makes him feel, as an author?

And you wonder why his pace’s slowed.

>Why does Anon shitstorm in some stories and not in others?

Differences in author ability to balance the demands of allowing reader freedom with the responsibility of keeping the more obstinate and intractable among them in check.

>It doesn't correlate with story popularity; Science LA was pretty much unanimous for Nitori route despite being one of the more popular stories at the time, and while there was certainly unrest in HLA1, it calmed down to a greater extent than GH has. It doesn't seem to correlate with character popularity; if memory serves, we were hooking up with Aya in GiG around the same time that the "ZUN's girlfriend" meme was in full swing. Quality of writing?

In a word, yes. If you take a moment and consider the stories that have avoided unnecessary controversy in greater degree, the large majority of them have some sort of narrative purpose that unites the story as a whole. If they have routes, they’re relegated to a state of secondary importance and aren’t used as a crutch to create a story where there wouldn’t be anything otherwise. As evidence, you need only consider…

>There certainly weren't any (romance-related) shitstorms in RaAN.

Exactly.

(As an aside, I don’t dislike routes or routelocks. I just think that they have are often handled in a way that promotes the worst abuses of the democratic method and that some corrective is necessary that both parties involved in telling the story approach it with a clearer mindset as to what they entail.)
>> No. 3564
>>3556
Not quite. Like >>3557 pointed out, there are several stories that break those 'criteria' and are still popular. Aside from The Game, Lion's stories break most of those, and still manage to get 10-15 votes per update.
>> No. 3567
>>3562
Meiling's more thwarted more by Sakuya and Patchy than Remilia. GH is the only story with a Flandre route, and the last just due to how some folks seem to think it's a pedo route.
The chaos that was DoLF1 was a result of no routelock for most of the story and by the time Teruyo bothered to put the Alice Routelock in, the story was a few hops away from imploding.

Keine? The whole Eientei situation is rather pitiable since in /eientei/ there isn't that many functioning stories, and they are too focused on the workings of Eientei itself. With gensokyo wide stories, there's fierce competition from just about every other faction. Two stories that might have a chance of a Keine route: Gussy's Secret of Manaish story, and perhaps Kamen Rider in Gensokyo. Harker's story itself might had a strong chance of a Keine route before he vanished. And Keine's biggest threat isn't Mokou, but Eientei in general. After all, a lovely humble school teacher has a hard time competing with a place so full of mystery.

As far as Gunman in Gensokyo goes, its Snake and Aya have entered a One True Pairing status, and if he did say anything about focusing on Aya too much, it was strictly in a general social sense.

And GH's shitstorms aren't caused by a fear of a routelock, but a clash partially fueled by the nigh-zealot belief that a Flandre route is a pedo route. The fact it's raged on this long is only thanks to the whole no routelock policy thus far. Both sides will not give up until Taisa calls a routelock. This 'partisan' voting is a result of both sides desperately trying to have their route prevail. And the matter of folks considered Flandre route pedo route is why Taisa states about the appearance and age of Flandre and Rumia.

But the roots of these shitstorms in HLA2 and GH are a result of the sheer amount of hiatus stories, the cluster route nature in these two stories (in GH only one SDM character'll get a route and in HLA2 only one Yakumo family member would get a route) that causes such absurdly fierce competition. In other stories, such a thing doesn't come up due to the promise of the next run giving them a chance. That's why there was only a bit of resistance in SDM LA, because they knew they'd get their chance next time. I won't go into what happens next, but these 'cluster-route' stories seem to show the worse of route-based storytelling.

But stories that went without shitstorms usually had one of a few things. Mainly, a greater plot than just routes and/or a miraculous case of people agreeing on one target. In Sleeper's story it's a mix of both since i don't think anyone has a problem with Merlin being the main girl. RiG seems to have very easy going attitude, since even though there's folks pushing for Marisa, Yuuka, or Reimu routes, there hasn't been a single shitstorm in that regarding romance. Lion's story is more infamous for shitstorms regarding non-romantic choices.

>(As an aside, I don’t dislike routes or routelocks. I just think that they have are often handled in a way that promotes the worst abuses of the democratic method and that some corrective is necessary that both parties involved in telling the story approach it with a clearer mindset as to what they entail.)

I agree, since I've notice a few stories had ill-timed locks and were done in a way as to cause a massive uproar. But what other way do you propose to settle down such a massive series of shitstorms like in GH?
>> No. 3568
File 126583785623.png - (487.56KB , 1280x1024 , 8707752.png ) [iqdb]
3568
>>3562
>Differences in author ability to balance the demands of allowing reader freedom with the responsibility of keeping the more obstinate and intractable among them in check.

I really do wonder why more authors don't take the time to tell the special few that insist upon constant whining/trolling/shit storming in their threads that they're a detriment to the story and should knock it off or get out. Any attention is good attention? Sadism? Laziness? A notion that keeping the voter base in line is some form of railroading?

Up to the authors on how to manage their stories I guess, but I know I prefer when the authors are a little more involved in the process than the occasional comment before or after an update.

>Look at how many times Taisa has had to correct people about the age and appearance of a particular character

Say what?
>> No. 3569
>>3567

There are so many things wrong here that I don't even know where to begin, and so I am going to put this as succinctly as I can:

Shut up, Wiseman.

You are an idiot.
>> No. 3570
>>3569
shit, I was going to post the exact same thing

>>3562
>Look at how many times Taisa has had to correct people about the age and appearance of a particular character. One of the most popular character, no less. What do you call this, if not “readers” disregarding or skimming the story?
I call it writing a character with the personality and body size* of a 10 year old while insisting that she's really Over 18™ and that people should be attracted to her even if they don't like little girls. It doesn't really work that way, sorry.

*
>She tilts her head backwards, until she's looking at you upside-down from below; despite sitting in your lap, she's still quite a bit shorter than you.
>> No. 3573
>>3570
Has he done that more than once? Could've been a brainfart.
>> No. 3574
>>3570
Women are normally considered shorter than men, and is made pretty obvious by the thousands of anime and other artwork that portrays them as such. All you have to do is take one of those pictures and imagine the character to look more like that while you're reading the story. I do this all the time; I have no problems with it. Taisa did say that the personality is the same, but the body type is not. In GH they're all teens and have teen bodies.

It's not just Flandre; both Rumia and Remilia have the same body size and personality; they're all originally lolis. No one is bothered by having sexual thoughts about them, however. This is because they're able to keep their emotions in check and act like adults when they want to, or have a need to be. Flandre can do this, too, but she's never given the chance. It is because she's thought to be unstable, that there are only two extremes to her personality, neither of which are very attractive (unless you do like little girls, or are a Yuuka fan). This is more likely the reason it seems wrong to a lot of people, is not only the personality, but because it's like being attracted to the criminally insane or mentally retarded. Then there's that joke that Flandre is just Rumia dressing up and putting on wings - this proves that nobody has an issue with the body size, as they're still okay with Rumia.

Mind and body makes a person. Many people forget that these are magical creatures that are hundreds if not thousands of years old with serious problems of their own, and choose some way to escape them; being child-like is just one of the many ways. Hell, half the Touhou cast are written as spoiled brats.

Frankly, there's nothing wrong with liking innocence, flat-chests, midgets, or any combination of the three. They need love, too, and I don't see anyone patronizing the nun fetishists. Sure, you may yap about your morals on the internet, but you'd never dare say anything to the husband (of wife) of one if you met them in real life.

When you read a story, you try to make some part of it real enough that it connects with you on an emotional level. Because of this, it is far too easy to confuse a fictional character with a real person. The limitations of our world and your own preferences towards people get in the way, and quite often you forget that the characters you're dealing with have distinct features that don't actually exist in reality.

Nibbling on the ears of Ran or Chen is cute, but would you honestly put your pet's ear in your mouth and spend the next five minutes spitting out fur? It's not pubic hair, and not nearly as fun.
>> No. 3576
File 126592149381.jpg - (41.71KB , 592x228 , cirnon.jpg ) [iqdb]
3576
>>3574
there is so much wrong here that I'm just going to break it down real quick

>Women are normally considered shorter than men
not short enough to look up at you from your lap

>In GH they're all teens and have teen bodies.
that vague description conflicts with actual details given in the story, so even when taisa says it I'm not buying it

>[...] Remilia have the same [...] personality
no she does not

>No one is bothered by having sexual thoughts about them
you fucking idiot, you think I'm suppressing my lolicon urges? I don't fucking have them! this isn't some loli version of homophobia, I don't want flan or rumia to be the focus because I'm not interested in them!

>[Rumia is] able to keep [her] emotions in check and act like adults
no

>Flandre can do this, too, but she's never given the chance.
bullshit until it actually happens

>this proves that nobody has an issue with the body size, as they're still okay with Rumia.
no they are not. rumia is even more childish than flan

>there's nothing wrong with liking innocence, flat-chests, midgets [...] I don't see anyone patronizing the nun fetishists.
flan is not acting like a nun. it's about mental maturity, adult girls who are "innocent" still act like adults (and if they don't it's kind of creepy)

>Sure, you may yap about your morals on the internet, but you'd never dare say anything to the husband (of wife) of one if you met them in real life.
DURR HURR INTERNET ARGUING IS FAKE ARGUING

>When you read a story, you try to make some part of it real enough that it connects with you on an emotional level. Because of this, it is far too easy to confuse a fictional character with a real person. The limitations of our world and your own preferences towards people get in the way, and quite often you forget that the characters you're dealing with have distinct features that don't actually exist in reality.
this is just kind of insane I don't know what to do with this

p.s. stop posting already you clueless douche
>> No. 3577
File 126592512567.jpg - (32.96KB , 604x340 , 1248723970.jpg ) [iqdb]
3577
>>3576
The attitude your post embodies is everything wrong and unwanted in GH, perhaps even the site. If you can't even accept what the author is telling you about the characters in the story he is writing, why are you even reading it or bother participating?
>> No. 3580
>>3576
>not short enough to look up at you from your lap
Yes, yes they are. Even if shorter by a head, they'll still need to crane their neck. Growth does not finish in high school; there are many kids that age who are short enough to be confused as much younger. On top of this Jin is a foreigner, and perhaps taller than most boys his age.
>that vague description conflicts with actual details given in the story, so even when taisa says it I'm not buying it
Your loss. Have you at least tried? It's not that hard.
>you fucking idiot, you think I'm suppressing my lolicon urges? I don't fucking have them! this isn't some loli version of homophobia, I don't want flan or rumia to be the focus because I'm not interested in them!
OH SHIT WOW! HOW DID YOU EVER FIND OUT I WAS ONLY TALKING TO YOU? OBVIOUSLY YOUR OPINIONS MATTER MORE THAN EVERYONE ELSE READING THE STORY.

Go take a long walk off a short pier.
>no they are not. rumia is even more childish than flan
Well that's certainly one you don't hear too often.
>flan is not acting like a nun. it's about mental maturity, adult girls who are "innocent" still act like adults (and if they don't it's kind of creepy)
Way to cut up the post there, Van Gogh. I almost couldn't make sense of it.

Again, I refer you to the way many of these girls act like children, regardless of body size, due to them being youkai of extreme age and having a lot of serious problems.

>assuming Remilia has never acted like a child
>assuming Rumia can't behave like an adult when she's already shown she can
>assuming Flandre can't behave like an adult when she's already shown she can
Ah, so I see you haven't even read the story. Well that explains everything.

>p.s. stop posting already you clueless douche
Sure, but I'd kindly ask you to do the same. You arrogant cunt.
>> No. 3581
>>3576
You. Shut the hell up. I don't give a fuck about what you're talking about or even if you're right or wrong. You're rude, immature and hardheaded and need to shut the hell up ASAP.
If someone can find that much about you by reading two fucking posts, then you're doing something wrong. In this case, you're still posting. Back to my original request then: get the fuck out.
>> No. 3583
>>rumia is even more childish than flan
>>flan is not acting like a nun. it's about mental maturity, adult girls who are "innocent" still act like adults (and if they don't it's kind of creepy)

>>childish
>>mental maturity
>>act like adults

>>talking about characters in a story taking place in school setting

It seems to me that some people are forgetting an important fact. The name of the story is "Gensokyo High.
Not "Gensokyo University".
Not "Gensokyo Community College".
Not even "Gensokyo GED Program".
"Gensokyo High". As in "High School".
A place that, in general, is primarily populated by people who are definitely not adults. They might wish they were or try to act like they are, but they're not.

Granted, the majority of the students in this particular case are centuries-old supernatural beings, but the fact remains the the setting is what it is for a reason, and so even those characters should be expected to act accordingly to their roles. Which is to say, like high school kids. Teenagers. The only ones who have any excuse for acting like adults in this situation are the ones in positions typically held by adults to begin with; teachers, parents/guardians, and so on.

Everyone else, though? Once again: teenagers. That's the role they're filling, and so that is how they are going to act. Especially the ones that actually are teenagers, like the protagonist.

As for Flandre, in particular, yes she does act childish at times. She even admitted to it, herself. However, you CANNOT tell me that she has not in any way shown herself to be capable of acting in a way that's more befitting of how at least a teenage girl acts.

Just look at at what she's done so far in just this one day (in-story, of course) for crying out loud. She got jealous seeing the guy she liked with another girl, passive-aggressively menaced and bullied that girl, and then went home and locked herself in her room.
I mean, come on. The only way she could have been acting more like a teenager at that point was if she started blasting music and possibly cutting herself.

My point is, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to go on about how a certain character does or does not act enough like a mature adult when, by virtue of the setting and context in which they're presented, they aren't even supposed to be a mature adult, nor are much of the cast.
>> No. 3586
>>3550
>Regarding the element of Plot discussion, give Anon the right amount of hints as to have them start discussion and speculating. If you give too much, they'll be stunned by the information. This happened in "A Flea in the Doghouse" somewhat recently, answering questions that anon had yet to even ask.

And here I thought I was helping them out by giving them something they hadn't had to ask about several times already for.
>> No. 3588
>>3545
>objected badly due to the belief that sex is bad.
...Wiseman, you thick-skulled fucking illiterate nimrod idiot.

I'm pretty sure I made a big goddamn post back then where I not only apologized to AGLA's writer for bitching in his thread, but furthermore clearly fucking outlined what I was upset about precisely because of you or people LIKE you who just read into my initial complaints for about two or three lines, then wrote it off as "WHAT A PRUDE, THIS GUY CLEARLY HATES SEX." And anybody who read my apology and explanation knows that that wasn't even close to what I said.

My objection to boning Yuyuko was that it felt sort of disloyal to Konngara to just hop in the sack with Yuyu like that, and that furthermore, Yuyu came onto Myouren (or so it sure as hell felt to me) in a manner unpleasantly like a starry-eyed fan offering herself up to a rock star because her body's the best thing she can think to give him. The circumstances were of course slightly different, but there was enough of that there, I felt, that the whole affair just felt like we were taking advantage of her, author's reassurances be damned.

That is why I had a problem with it, you massive goddamn retard. Learn to read once in a while, as opposed to just seeing words rush by. You don't seem to have picked up that skill, yet.

I'll say again more or less what I said before, and maybe this time you'll actually take in the words. I'm not holding my breath, honestly, but it's worth a shot.

Gentlemen, I like sex. It's a fine and lovely thing, and I am miles away from being a prude. Futa? Great. Traps? Nice. Rape doujins? Hell, I don't even blink. Tentacles? The more the merrier. Banging the bejesus out of attractive girls left and right? I'll have a double order, thanks.

But that's porn, not intimacy. When in the context of a story, and when the author has created characters so carefully and lovingly, clearly putting a great amount of effort into the story and into bringing these characters to life, I tend to treat the main character's relationship and interactions with them as real people might do.

In short, when emotions and the idea of giving a damn about someone comes into the mix, the rules and standards change. This isn't hypocrisy, this is how humans tick. You wouldn't ask your girlfriend to go work the gloryhole at the county fair, and if you would, you have some serious problems.

In especially short: giving a damn about someone means not wanting to hurt them.

An amazing and novel concept, I know.

In the case of AGLA, where the author is doing a rather fine job of making his characters seem like real people, I get this wacky, zany notion in the back of my head that says they should be dealt with like how one interacts with actual people.

To use the rock star analogy from earlier: Being a ludicrously famous musician and getting tons of ass on tour from enthusiastic groupies sounds like a great concept, on paper. I mean, goddamn. Free sex, because you are just that goddamn amazing? You slam out a few songs, and now you have a crowd of crazed girls flinging themselves at you.

But the kind of people who do bang the groupies and move on with the tour are narcissistic jackasses high on their own celebrity status, and don't give much of a fuck about anything besides themselves.

If you take a step back and look at it, the incident with Yuyu is admittedly, not the same. It is, however, close enough. Rather than because of idolization and teenage hormones, Yuyuko offers herself to Myouren out of overwhelming gratitude and the like. But offering your body as thanks or as a way of trying to make someone happy, or whatever... it feels too much like the naive girl walking out to the back of the tour bus. I understand that there were different values to be had back then, but it still doesn't change my reaction. I'm aware that's the point other people are making in this thread, but unfortunately, that's the kind of audience you're writing for.

There are two other interesting cases that have touched on the exclusivity side of this issue, and I'm interested to see how they'll play out. One is Fallout in Gensokyo, where Max is apparently still managing to hold together a menage-a-trois, but the author has said, even in the story, through Daiyousei, that he is going to need to work very, very hard on holding that together and not letting it spin out.
The other is in Mind the Gap, in which the entire POINT, more or less, is screwing everything female in sight. And yet even there, the readers have developed a fondness for Shinki (due to being a lonely girl who just wants be loved, which is something Anon is weak to; it's probably because most of us can empathize with that) and Kogasa (who has a kind of a quirky, cheerful, clingy charm without being creepy or crazy about it; something else Anon is weak to.). Even when it is explicitly clear the whole purpose of the story is sex, we still don't want to hurt those that care for us. The author has had to make it clear that Shinki and Kogasa know and understand that due to his position (as the pet of Yukari), he's not going to be exclusively doing just them, and that they're more or less okay with that. I'd suspect he'd have had a somewhat harder time getting his readers to move on if he had not done so.

I've rambled and talked a whole hell of a lot, and sort of gotten off track. Nevertheless, I hope people will be able to take something away from this and not just read a bit and brush it off, drastically misinterpreting it.

It's too much to hope for Wiseman to do that, though, because no matter what people say, he cannot and will not admit he is ever wrong. And if he does, he'll immediately negate any apology or admission of wrongdoing by claiming the rest of what he said is right, anyway, and it's not this one pesky thing we should be worried about, but everything else he was saying instead. His usual policy is just to delete the post where he fucked up, and pretend it never happened, which is the mark of another I-can-do-no-wrong prick, much like YAF. He never admitted to any wrongdoing when caught; he would just lie about what he'd meant, or claim they completely misinterpreted what he meant, and then make up some crazy, twisted interpretation of his original statement in a dazzling display of bullshit.

The saddest part of all this is that by the time you read this line, you have read everything I have written. What Wiseman sees is, "This jerk is hating on me for pretty much no reason at all, and then says I'm as bad as YAF. People here just don't understand me, man."

>>3574
>No one is bothered by having sexual thoughts about them, however.
Speak for yourself. This entire post feels like very careful, well-thought-out rationalization of creepiness in the guise of sensible-seeming arguments.
It's like a creep doing a top-notch job of very firmly trying not to come off as a creep at all.

...But no matter how hard you try, you still have the smell of "creep" on your words, and nothing you do can ever wash that away.
>> No. 3589
>>3588
Though we don't quite see eye-to-eye, I thank you for approaching the story with a mature attitude and rationally articulating your opinion. For me at least, it's far preferable to the behavior of >>3576 - one who would probably be more at home among the shippers of fanfiction.net than this site.

Also, in the event you're not one of those who went LOLDROPPED after the sequence in question, I believe you'll have some interest at what's going to happen when the present chain of events concludes with regards to how that choice plays in.
>> No. 3590
>>3588
You're right, I shouldn't have generalized. It does ring true for quite a large portion of GH's readers, though, and any other Remilia/Rumia fans in stories where they're portrayed with the same body size and personality.

But I'm not quite sure how I managed to come off as a creep to you...
>> No. 3591
>>3590
I'm not him, but I'll tell you my view of things: enjoying the thought of sexual interaction with DFC/tsurupettan girls, while a somewhat unnerving fetish, is morally fine. Enjoying the thought of sexual interaction with girls with the mentality of children is not morally okay. The second half of >>3574 reads like it's trying to justify the latter.
>> No. 3592
>>3586
It did help, just too well. Of course updating faster would easily promote discussion.

update; it feels good man

>>3588
Anyways I'd admit my opinion is wrong if the retorts didn't amount to "lol Wiseman". Could you please point out the apology post, since due to reading GH, wading through shit puddles got boring. Yeah my opinion is flawed, but it's just an opinion. I knew some people would consider parts of it shit, but I was just wanted to promote some discussion about the points I brought up. In the end it still doesn't change the facts that Anon basically ruined Fairy Maid for HY and themselves.

I don't mind people being pissed off at me for real reasons, just people who seem bash me just because it seems the "cool thing" to do.

But I must say to my 'loyal fans' if you're going about accusing people of being me, try to be more accurate, since I saw how you accused the wrong people in both GH's normal thread and its /words/ thread.

And guess what? I've realized how I screwed up various times, posting with my trip too much (I'm quick to tell newbies not to use them), my disasterous story attempt. (It was flawed and my skills weren't suited for it. I'm grateful for the slice of humble pie).

I'd try to improve if not for the impression I have it'd be useless and would involve me become a sheep that thinks like everyone else. Please take your usual Wiseman bashfest elsewhere else; I don't want this discussion topic getting shitted up by various personal attacks.
>> No. 3593
>>3592
>Anyways I'd admit my opinion is wrong if the retorts didn't amount to "lol Wiseman".
Wiseman, why would you say this? Not only did >>3588 go out of his way to explain himself again, but there have been several posts which have explained the problems with the opinions expressed in your OP post. Nobody's argument is 'lol Wiseman'. >>3588 did insult you, but his argument wasn't 'lol Wiseman'. If you had read and understood his entire post carefully, you wouldn't think his argument was 'lol Wiseman'. The only conclusion I can draw here is that you either didn't read or didn't understand his post, skimmed through it in just the same way he warned you not to, and then made your own post.

Your assertion that lots of Anon avoid sex due to a Protestant sex-is-bad mentality is, by all indications, wrong. Please either admit that this opinion is wrong or, after carefully reading all the posts in this thread, provide evidence that explains how your opinion could still be right.

And apologize to >>3588 for clearly not having completely read his post before responding. That's just rude.
>> No. 3594
File 12661399681.png - (69.64KB , 407x405 , 1241942852435.png ) [iqdb]
3594
You all just love to over analyze shit, don't you?
>> No. 3595
>>3593
lol wiseman
>> No. 3596
>>3595
loli wiseman?
>> No. 3599
>>3593

I was talking in general, and I do apologize to >>3588 if he thought that was the case. Since I do appreciate the effort to do more than call me an idiot.

I wish I knew where his apology to AGLA anon was so I can see it, but I'll take his word for it and apologize about that.

Now this in general, I wasn't the only guilty of "my opinion is never wrong", but yes I was indeed quite guilty of that. Opinions are basically subjective until proven in any case.

This brings to mind something HY said about an "unhealthy environment to writing", and after asking him further (he was nice enough to answer some questions), it basically amounted to the sheer amount of faggotry in and out of IRC. I wasn't there at the beginning but I knew this overly arrogant "we are better than everyone else" atmosphere wasn't there at the beginning. He said it was more of "Self-satirizing" environment back then. I can easily imagine such an environment being oppressing to new inexperienced writers, like Grue. And no he is not HY; I recall in Fairy maid that kind of shit happening when HY put it on Hiatus for the last time. But this means to any writers persisting, especially the innovators, deserve our respect.

If anything's going to kill this site, it's said faggotry combined with the post move pessimism that's arisen.

I've noticed a few times people being accused of other writers. (Someone accused Mind The Gap's writer of being Patchwork in addition to the Grue debacle) Believe it or not, new people try to make new stories.

Just to make it clear, the Fairy Maid debacle wasn't just Anon's misdoing, but HY's failure to communicate. Perhaps Anon back at the time he started writing knew what he was doing, but not post-move anon. I think it'll be a miracle if HY ever writes here again.

I think back then was richer in discussion due to the fact back then, writefags read other stories while they were writing. That isn't the case today with a chunk of them. If they're going to update at Glasnost speeds, they should make the updates as meaty as Glasnost does.

I must actually thank the sage bombers for showing me the error of my ways. (I've realized my skill is quite lacking, and the idea I was going with wasn't very good)

I know a part of what I'm typing isn't right, but part of it isn't quite wrong. I'm just trying to provide food for thought. That was my goal in the first place for making this topic.
>> No. 3602
>>3599
>implying Grue isn't HY
๏̯͡๏)
>> No. 3604
>>3599
Just in case anyone thinks Wiseman's take on this is accurate, HY doesn't write here anymore because he wants to focus on improving as a serious writer, and let's face it, a Touhou fanfiction image board is not the place to go for detailed criticism of your work and discussion of writing in general. He's just moved on to greener pastures.
>> No. 3606
>>3604
>HY doesn't write here anymore because he wants to focus on improving as a serious writer

Except for the part where he said that he doesn't want to write here anymore because the atmosphere of the site is not conducive to creativity or fun and that no one is willing to try anything new.

You're right that he also said anonymous' tastes and attitudes don't encourage good writing, but to try and say that's the sum of his reasons misrepresents his views.
>> No. 3607
I never said it was completely accurate, just a crude jist of it.

And today I got a reminder that there's hope for new generation stuff; mainly how well stories like Shadow over Gensokyo, ADS in /shrine/, that story in /underground/ with the megawalls.

So yeah I'm wrong about the matter of anon's reactions to new things, but these folks also made it clear that they weren't going to be your typical THP tales. Yeah HY is wrong about this and when I was in #Touhouporn (Despite the name, it has far less faggotry) witnessing a arguement between Kapow and HY about the matter, HY was insistent on there being nothing new here, even despite me asking if AGLA made no progress. He also said that this site was a shithole. He even says that much in that /blue/ Kirin leaving drama topic.

To be honest at first my reaction to Kirin leaving was a mix of sadness (I liked his story) and "Hey proof towards my point of the evils of faggotry" but I thought about it. I realized his post didn't made sense for one reason: He was among those that waded waist deep in the faggotry.

>>/blue/1174
This is his clarification; which is a mix of "typical writefag thinking his stuff is worse than it actually is due to depression" mixed with Real Life problems. The whole IRC matter didn't seem to help either. Similar discussion topics are coming up there, and some nice points there too.

There are still traces of negative attitudes in both anon and writefags. But I think Kirin leaving might have done things a favor still. I'll miss his story though.
>> No. 3608
>>3606
HY really said that? Or are you talking about that guy who wrote Scarlet Stained Memoir?
>> No. 3610
>>3608
Talking about HY, and he basically pulled an Owen except he lingers around a bit. Hearing his super bitter, partially blind reaction, I almost start to wonder if HY was Grue (Who got the brunt of the attitude here)
>> No. 3611
>>3610
>I almost start to wonder if HY was Grue (Who got the brunt of the attitude here)

What attitude was this? Could someone explain?
>> No. 3616
>>3611
Grue got hit with a barrage of spoilered "Grue is HY" (some suspect it was started by an IRC faggot, but unapproved by IRC as a whole) as well as remarks in response to him saying he needed to take a break. The whole thing was a mess; I'm be amazed if he ever comes back after such a display. And if anyone saw it, they'd think twice about starting a story here.
>> No. 3620
>>3616
Except it was pretty fucking obvious that Grue was HY. People don't make baseless accusations out of nothing, you know.
>> No. 3621
>>3620
There's no iron bound proof of that, then again there's no proof that he wasn't HY either. At this point HY would not to hide under another name. It was most likely Giddy being a bitter bastard as usual

I seen people asking if the "Mind the Gap" Anon is Patchwork. It's not; this site does get new writers, though with the attitude anon does have at times, it's rather amazing we get any new ones at all.
>> No. 3624
>>3621
>>3616

So that's what got deleted in the last thread? I followed Deeper Underground when it was still ongoing and must have missed it back then. For the life of me though, I couldn't get why people were so determined to "unmask" Grue. Whether it was HY or not, he was someone who wrote often and well, who knew how to spin an exciting yarn.

Why couldn't anonymous appreciate something good for what it is?
>> No. 3625
>>3624
The reverse is true as well, though: what's the harm in being compared to one of the site's better writers? You're already writing under a pseudonym; all that's at stake is e-peen. Take it as a compliment and keep writing.

I suppose that must be easier said than done, though. Either way, perpetuating that rumor after the writer had expressed his distaste for it was a pretty shitty thing to do.
>> No. 3627
>>3625
Reminding some folks of classic HY is one thing, but he started suffering from the massive pressure that's put on HY whenever he pops up, and the remark was made in a harassing tone. This went to 11 when Grue announced his break; mods were required to clean up all the shitposts out of his threads a couple of times. And it still continued, no doubt being egged on by the original poster of the remark.

This was also a result of HY's old bad habit of going under different names to escape the massive fame pressure he earned. As with many of his bad habits, this came to bit himself and other folks in the ass.

I used to think Grue was not HY at all, but with HY basically giving up writing on this site, citing "bad anon attitude" in short, I do have a bit of doubt, since the Grue incident was one of the biggest cases of Anon-brand faggotry seen in recent history. Someone from IRC might have started it, but it was anon that finished the job.
>> No. 3628
>It's not; this site does get new writers

At this point, this fact boggles me right now. Close to 2 years after the fact, how is there new talent still being funneled here? The closest I see to blatant exposure is the occasional piece of (uncredited) drawfag art appearing in a thread on /jp/ I'm certainly not complaining, but where the hell are the new anon/writefags coming from?

I still think it's pretty hilarious that /tg/ has a staggering amount of CYOAs that have never been considered for bans even after the shitstorm from banning GM for "fanfiction"
>> No. 3629
>>3628
Anon in a single word, some anon are inspired to write after reading here, some good,some bad. And not just new Anon, but old anon too. Perhaps one day this site will get back to the point where it deserves its lofty reputation.

I think WUiG dominated /jp/ back then so badly Moot had to ban GM; though that whole act kinda changed the spirit of /jp/ permanently.
>> No. 3630
>>3620
Except that everyone and their grandmother that writes has been accused of being HY at some point.
>> No. 3633
>>3630
Most times that had been said in passing, not a constant barrage of posts. Like I said earlier, this wouldn't happen if not for HY's bad habit of his different names.
>> No. 3634
>>3607
>He also said that this site was a shithole.
[citation needed]

>>/blue/1137
This post is talking about IRC, not the site.

>>3621
MtG's author has been around since the beginning (or at least since after the exodus from /jp/), and this is his second story I know of. Just throwing that out.
>> No. 3635
>>3634
He did mention that he used a name before. What was his other story?
>> No. 3652
>>3635
The Golgo 13 one. I can't find it at the moment.

(Why are we saging? There is only ranting above this thread.)
>> No. 3833
I felt like posting another topic: Joke votes. Sure they're funny and absurd. The problem comes when other anon take them seriously. If not stopped, these votes can wreak untold havoc in a story. Yeah it's a basically non-intentional troll vote. The best thing to do is realize that your joke is going too far and try to stop Anon from going through with it.

Troll votes in contrast are intentionally made to bring ruin to a story to either troll the writer or the anons reading it. They are a by product of the despair jag some writers want to engage in. One not very green IRC goer specializes in this, or at least claims to. Either his attempts were mostly thwarted or he doesn't do as much as he says.
>> No. 3837
>>3833
I generally post my joke votes when the votes are overwhemingly to one side or another, or when the writer's already called it.
>> No. 3844
>>3837
Good move, since due to your esteemed reputation, anon would take anything you post as gold.

May I ask you something if you're still around: Is it me or have you stopped posting in Ancient Gensokyo LA? That is if you even posted in the first place. If not, my apologies. I'm just asking since your input would be quite valued in that story.
>> No. 3845
>>3833

Whenever I hear "joke vote" I get so nostalgic of watching bible black with Kaguya...
>> No. 3846
>>3844
Mostly, I find myself with limited time these days, so I'm often unable to fully invest myself in a good read. Ancient is pretty deep, and I'd like to give it the attention it deserves, rather than a quick skim-and-vote.
In short, I haven't quit it, but it's been necessary to back off of it for awhile.

I regret this situation as it is. There's quite a few stories here that I've fallen behind on - Norseman and Klaymen's stories, for example. But, bills must be paid.
>> No. 3850
>>3845
Thank you for bringing up a case of a story's run that was victim to both troll and joke votes that went unchecked.
>> No. 3870
>>3630
I've never been accused of being HY.

... Though I suppose that says something about my ability to tell a story/skill at writing, huh.
>> No. 3871
>>3870
It's more like you started at the same time or predate HY. I was referring to Writers that start off updating at a fast and furious speed.
>> No. 3890
Since this thread is somewhat about discarding some aspects of tradition, might as well place my rant in here.

Dear writers:

Stop using ze. Please. Just stop.

Ze has no place in the English language, unless a character has a non-native accent, like German or Japanese.

According to this site: http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa110401a.htm

Ze "elicits an agreement" and is "used only by men in casual conversation among colleagues, or with those whose social status is below that of the speaker."

You don't stick ne into English dialogue, and so you shouldn't stick ze into your writing either.

According to WWWJDIC: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

"ぜ(P); ぞ(P) (prt) (sentence end, mainly masc.) adds force; indicates command; (P)"

In that case ze should also not appear. Just make Marisa talk like a dude. Certainly, it's not as obvious in English as it is in Japanese, but you can do it.

And if you can't, like me, then just make her masculine in other ways.

I understand, of course, that I'm not paying you, that I'm not even using a trip, that you're just writing for fun, and that you don't really have to change things just because of me. I won't stop reading your story because of this. After all, it's just a pet peeve, not a deal breaker.

But I think your writing will be a tad better if you take this into account. And you don't even have to go make a pilgrimage to an awesome author's shrine in hopes of their awesomeness spilling over onto you.

Thank you.
>> No. 3891
>>3890
The times I've used 'ze' in stuff is whenever 'ne' would be used. Even then very rarely. It's a cheap way to add some flavor, a trick that gets (in my opinion) stale fast. Then again I also shy away from most Japanese phrases and terms in writing, using them only rarely to reinforce an idea or concept (like for every few 'shrine maiden(s)' there'll be an occasional 'miko').

A personal pet peeve of mine is the use of honorifics. I think that it has no place in a story written in English. There are plenty of words, terms of respect, and manners of speaking that can get that clarify relationships.
>> No. 3892
>>3890
>You don't stick ne into English dialogue, and so you shouldn't stick ze into your writing either.

Ne's English equivalent would be like sticking "Right?" or "Y'know?" at the end of a sentence, so that could be why people don't use it. Ze, on the other hand, doesn't have one, so the only way to say it would be, well, "Ze."

Although, yeah, writers could just try and make her talk like a guy instead.
>> No. 3893
If writers feel the need to add "ze" to the end of a sentence, I'd rather see the more complete "da ze" used instead. "da ze" is the sentence ending that gives the feel of masculinity or roughness, and "ze" by itself feels like nothing more than gratuitous Japanification from people who don't know any better, ie. the generic weeaboo.

My pet peeve in this sense is the use of Japanese filler words in a way that makes no sense; if it can't be written without sounding unnatural or absurd in an English context, then don't use it at all. Things can almost always be expressed more clearly just by rewording things with a more natural English choice of words.
>> No. 3894
>>3890
Some interesting notes to be sure, though I don't consider Marisa the most masculine talking character, that would be more Mokou and/or Yuugi. Marisa is the most popular and some folks consider it a 'trademark'.

But I think I'll put it in terms that would make trying to use verbal ticks not so attractive: Naruto and "BELIEVE IT!" And imagine each time you read something, all the "Da Ze"'s would be replaced by That.

>>3891
Definitely agreed, especially when dealing with the SDM, immigrants that didn't come from japan. You'd sooner find Milady, Mistress, etc than any Oujo-samas.

But I think exception might be made for Youmu and how utterly Japanese she is in her nature, upbringing and swordsmanship. Everyone else can feasibly use western style honorifics.

I've also seen some things where verbal ticks/honorfrics were badly overused. It was rather grating. But I think some folks use such things as to half ass covering tomboy characters.
>> No. 3895
>>3893
"da ze" is not a "more complete" version of "ze". "da" is the Japanese copula, not a sentence ending particle, and it makes no sense grammatically to add it to sentences that don't already have it. Take for instance, 行こう! → "Let's go!". The most natural way to add "ze" to that is 行こうぜ! → "Let's go-ze!" 行こうだぜ! → "Let's go-da ze!" is bizarre and ungrammatical.

As long as we're on the subject, MikoSpark's story is utterly ridiculous about this. Even ignoring the fact that about 50% of the "ze"s in that story appear in sentences which could not plausibly have a "ze" in Japanese, the only people who uses "ze" as often as Marisa does in that story are the faceless rapists from H-doujins.
>> No. 3908
>>3895
Not sure if he's aware of this complain or not, but I think most people let it pass due to how he makes it sound cute at times. But did you try posting that complaint in his thread?


As for the general topic of this post? Trying to prevent newbies from making stupid little mistakes, such as lumping in a major update in a 2-3 update burst. Sure this isn't cuddles site, but I think a bit of looking out would prevent ruined repuations and improve things overall.
>> No. 4507
>>3895
>As long as we're on the subject, MikoSpark's story is utterly ridiculous about this. Even ignoring the fact that about 50% of the "ze"s in that story appear in sentences which could not plausibly have a "ze" in Japanese, the only people who uses "ze" as often as Marisa does in that story are the faceless rapists from H-doujins.

Now that explains a lot of things...
>> No. 4515
>>3891
>A personal pet peeve of mine is the use of honorifics. I think that it has no place in a story written in English. There are plenty of words, terms of respect, and manners of speaking that can get that clarify relationships.

I cannot agree with this. In English, there are essentially just three ways of addressing someone without sounding weird: (1) first name only, (2) last name only, and (3) last name with Mr./Mrs./Ms. 1 and 3 have many equivalents in Japanese that are regularly used, and even the ones that aren't heard regularly at least don't sound as "The fuck did you say?" as attaching more formal titles in modern English.

For instance, there's essentially no way of saying [personal name]-[san|sama] in English. The idea of adding respect to a personal name just doesn't make sense in nearly any situation, but it's at least plausible in Japanese.

There are some noted exceptions where Japanese honorifics don't make as much sense as English (or French) ones, yes, but in the great majority of cases rendering these terms in English proves a woefully lossy translation.

All that aside, in my opinion, using characters with Japanese names already makes things sound odd. The English language flows most easily with English names--this is natural and expected. Placing Japanese constructions around those names doesn't introduce any additional problems.
>> No. 4731
There's various sources

ZUN writting fanbooks (though PMiSS should be taken with a bag of salt, and a cup full for BAiJR); some folks have a nasty habit of taking PMiSS as absolute truth.

ZUN written side stories (Often give a view into Gensokyo outside of incidents), but often ignored.

The games, or exactly the two parts

The script during the game- Not bad but often gives an incomplete picture, and people have the bad habit of only using this bit when they decide to use canon.

The Endings- Give interesting insight but rarely seen due to the stupid taboo about not posting them. The Endings Wikia was nice while it was up. Did you know that Shinki's alive and well post MS? Funny how people play off the events of that game as "Reimu genocides Makai"

I bring this up because some folks outright ignore it as opposed to playing fast and loose with it or basically showing you're not even doing things canonically.

Take NARH's Hina story in /youkai/ while it plays things non-canonically, I feel it pays a character's canon personalities more respect than some stories.

But examples of outright ignoring canon: Stuttering Tsundere Alice and Dense as a Rock Marisa, Bitchy NEET Kaguya, Ice Bitch Sakuya, etc.

It's bad sign when canon stuff is translated slower than doujins.

As far the PC-98 matter? Basically when ZUN started the windows games, he ended up forgetting about the bulk of the PC-98 cast. Typical of a drunk after all. By the time he realized the fan demand for them, he was in a spot.

If he showed them now, people'd ask "What happened to them"

Though if he didn't speculation would run rampant. This kinda blew up when UFO came out; the references to MS that ZUN put in came off to some fans as giving them the finger.
>> No. 4745
>>3908
>stupid little mistakes, such as lumping in a major update in a 2-3 update burst.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Are you saying that breaking a huge update into a number of smaller pieces posted immediately back-to-back is a bad thing?

>>4731
This post could use a bit of rewriting, but otherwise, it's pretty on-target, and I agree with more or less everything said.

Especially the bit about the endings wiki. I miss that. Those, more than anything, are great sources of almost-assuredly-canon material.
>> No. 4746
>>4745
It depends on the schedule and other factors. Some folks post parts of updates as inspiration comes to them, other are limited to inputs that have characters limits. I don't consider it a major issue to be honest now. But I do think if you can honest can do an update in one post (No inspiration or DSi/Wii character limit issues), you should try to make the most of the character limit.

I'm not sure if all the updates were translated or even the exact story behind why it shut down.
>> No. 4781
>>4746
Well, I and other authors like me-- specifically, the ones who I picked the practice up from --post multiple posts back to back within the span of a few minutes in different parts because of either changes in scene, topic, perspective, or whatever. And each one allows for a new picture to be posted with it, helping to illustrate what's going on, or give a bit of flavor or theme to that post. Fallout writefag does this, as does Fell. At least a few others do, as well.
>> No. 4782
Oh, and as for the endings wiki, I think only half or a third of one Mystic Square ending or something was translated. All the other Windows games were translated, but PC-98 stays woefully un-Englished.
>> No. 4783
>>4781
Some valid points there, things have changed as such since I made that post that I might as well consider it null and void.

I think my next bit will be about fame... both the good and the bad.
>> No. 4797
>>4783
Please don't.
>> No. 5425
I say this because some people have picked up on the trend of folks practically worshiping him, even kicking folks in IRC that dare speak ill of him.

They're prone to copying his worse traits and none of his positive. As such they'll expect too much of anon, produce excessive amounts of drama in their threads, and might inflict Love Hina-level abuse on their mains, but with out the comedic context that allows things to carry on as if it didn't really happen.

This wouldn't be so unusual if not for the fact it's the only such case. Many folks merely respect HY, not copy his habit of never communicating. Same goes for Scorn yet no one puts excessive amounts of scat in his stories nor do they engage in his brand of laziness.

But it prompts this question: How does such a thing occur? The biggest theory is that Teruyo's writing affect them in such a way that it made them think it was good. That's in contrast to many folks, including many influential folks, to think the exact opposite.

And very often being seen as "Teruyoite" is not a compliment. Now if they only copied his positive traits, such as his surprising determinate in the face of all things, including his chronic depression.