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4212 No. 4212
Can someone explain to me exactly which of the "classic THP MCs" were Mary Sues, and how their being Mary Sues improved the stories they were in?

No. 4213
Good to see you haven't given up.

I can't remember any at the top of my head but that's probably because anon isn't even sure about what MCs were/are real Mary Sues.
Good luck.
No. 4218
Anon agreed to say that Archetype of Self's MC was a Mary-sue. You can already check that.
Otherwise, I don't know much THP's "classic" stories, but I can say that most of current character here are Mary Sue.
For example, /underground/'s half-mad biologist. He managed to strangle an oni to death, despite the fact tha japanese oni are way stronger than your average human.
That's Mary-Suish.
No. 4222
>>4218
No one denies Wade being a Gary Stu, even the Author admits that. But at least he made it fun.

I think I can list some examples of rather sueish characters. Mind you despite their sueness, they still came off as likable.

Belmonyous: If getting into a girl's room, groping her ass a bit and coming out of it with the girl liking you some aren't Sueish, I don't know what is.

David: Rather mild as while charming and decently strong, he wasn't overly so. The after story revelations of his lineage may reek of sueness.

Jin: Considerable music talent, sudden gain of ability (Both to pop things and to take on a rather vicious Rumia). He was also charming as hell; two teachers, 2+ classmates, a maid.

DoLF1 Shirou: Just due to the various things that happened and how some folks still liked him despite generally being a sorry hot gluer. Thank god for the second run's version to be more down to earth and gasp, likable.

Haku: He manage to score with Mima, come pretty damn close with Lunasa and Merlin, is "special" (no soul in him). I wouldn't count his romancing of Yuyuko as sueish as that took more time.
No. 4223
>>4222
You know, by your definition every MC is Mary Sue because they all have something that makes them special.
I am pretty sure you don't even know what it means.
No. 4224
>>4223
I was just listing characters with worse sueish traits than Helena from the new story. I was actually making that point as well remarking if these characters were introduced today, you'd have someone like the OP frothing at the mouth with Mary Sue mania. Also that Sueish traits aren't bad if done right.
No. 4225
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4225
>>4223

>>4222 seems to be mistaking "Mary-Sue" with "Mary-Suish".
Wade, from Archetype of Self, is a Mary-Sue. Or a Gary Tsu, the same.
Because he's almighty, and everyone love him.

Moriarty, Belnonymous, Jin, Haku, David and stuff are Mary-Suish. They have 1 or 2 above average skills, but they aren't as powerful than a real Mary Sue.


Remember, a Mary Sue is FUCKING PERFECT. If the character get his ass kicked by someone else, than he's not a Mary Sue.



Hard to focus with this. Nyanyanyanyanya~
No. 4226
>>4224
Hey, you. Why do you post just before I post? Now my post is useless. Damn.
And I can't even use any "!", because this music is calming me down.
No. 4228
>>4222
Your listing seems to be based on a fundamental misapprehension: Sueishness is based on character traits, not circumstances or situations.

>Belmonyous: If getting into a girl's room, groping her ass a bit and coming out of it with the girl liking you some aren't Sueish, I don't know what is.
This is a situation, not a trait. In fact, this scene is evidence against Belmonymous as a Sue, because he reacted with confusion, stuttering, and poorly-timed sexual advances. You could call it implausible that Remilia still liked him afterward, but given that likability was not a trait attributed to the character that manifested itself multiple times within the story, I don't think that can be called a Sue quality. Likewise David and Shirou, and Jin, while a bit more marginal, had flaws that I think balanced things out.

Haku, you've got more of a point with. Actually, thinking back, Hakunon was pretty ridiculously popular with the ladies for no adequately explained reason. I guess it worked there because the non-romance plot in HLA was built around other characters and Hakunon himself was just an observer/McGuffin more than anything.
No. 4230
Personally I think the best way to detect a mary sue or gary stu, is to list out their positive traits versus their negative traits.

You can't quantize sue-ness but with this method, I think you can definitely detect when a certain character (like the MC) is a little bit too 'awesome'. I'll have to test it out later with A Wizard is You or something.
No. 4233
>>4230
The trouble is getting an accurate count of 'negative' traits. Mary Sues are often dark and brooding with tragic pasts and prominent scars, and we are informed by the author that these are terrible things, but nothing in the context of the story itself ever actually makes it so. One of the big things I like about Wizardnon is that his dickishness is portrayed as a negative trait with actual negative repercussions that we see in-story as a direct consequence of his actions.
No. 4234
>>4225
Very true, though I think SDLT attempted to handwave the popularity as pre-story he did various good deeds in Gensokyo for most. That and smacked Tenshi around something fierce.

A reminder: He still had a very hard time against the Watasukis.

>>4228
I just think sneaking into Remilia's room and making such poor attempts at seduction would end badly for you. If not Remilia's rage, then Sakuya stepping in and 'cleaning up'.

It doesn't do much to decrease the overwhelming sueness at all. Though Wade still had trouble against the Watasukis for all his cheesiness.

>>4230
I don't think it's even traits alone that affect it but the execution. Sol Badguy from Guilty Gear is a massive Gary Stu (or at least has a sizable number of traits) in various regards, but he's done as such that no one complains about him.

Though I hope your reasons for suspecting the Wizard as a Sue/Stu is better than what has been given thus far (and thus countered explained by the writer).
No. 4237
>>4234
>I just think sneaking into Remilia's room and making such poor attempts at seduction would end badly for you. If not Remilia's rage, then Sakuya stepping in and 'cleaning up'.
>It doesn't do much to decrease the overwhelming sueness at all. Though Wade still had trouble against the Watasukis for all his cheesiness.
The point remains that this situation wasn't the result of some inherent trait of the character in question. If he had proceeded to charm the skirt off Sakuya to avoid being murdered, then that would have established a pattern indicating a Sue-like character trait, but that's not what happened. You can call it bad writing that he survived, if you are so inclined, but not a Mary Sue.

I know it's been a while since we reminded you, but just repeating your previous statements in response to a challenge to those statements is not how you argue, Wiseman.
No. 4239
>>4237
In fact, if I remember correctly, when I stopped reading that story, Sakuya was outright hating Belnonymous and threatening to kill him for changing the status quo.
No. 4242
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4242
>>4239
OH GOD SHOULD WE KISS SAKUYA? OR NOT? I THINK SOMETHING BAD WILL HAPPEN IF WE DON'T
No. 4245
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4245
>Jin: Considerable music talent, sudden gain of ability (Both to pop things and to take on a rather vicious Rumia). He was also charming as hell; two teachers, 2+ classmates, a maid.

Music talent: Wasn't that just a reaction from the Prismrivers due to him playing Layla?
Sudden gain of ability: Did it really count as all that 'sudden'? Also, he was pretty drained after just barely beating Rumia in a spell card duel, which is meant to give both participants a fair chance.
Charming as hell: I'm not sure what you're referring to in terms of having charmed two teachers. As for classmates, is being the 'only male in the class' not reason enough for there to be some increased interest in him?

Just asking.
No. 4249
Show me a story where MC doesn't have any suish trait, and I'll show you an uninteresting story where MC is a wimp.
No. 4251
>>4249
>implying wimps can't be interesting
Personal taste is personal.
No. 4252
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4252
>>I just think sneaking into Remilia's room and making such poor attempts at seduction would end badly for you. If not Remilia's rage, then Sakuya stepping in and 'cleaning up'.

It's been a while since I read it, but I thought that Remilia didn't outright kill the guy because she was amused by the sheer gall of him popping up in her room and doing what he did. Until some point later on, she didn't even really view him as an actual person, so much as an entertaining thing. A living toy, basically, and one she was perfectly willing to kill if he overstepped his bounds.

The point is, his survival of that scene in the beginning probably had less to do with any traits of his own, and more to do with the personality of that story's Remilia.
No. 4253
>>4251
I saw too many wimps to be entertained by them.
No. 4265
>>4253
>I
That's what personal taste means.
No. 4280
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4280
>>4265
No. 4301
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4301
>>4265
No. 4388
You, know, if the MC doesn't have any incredibly special trait that would attract the attention of a canon character, wouldn't simply attempting to get into Gensokyo be an interesting story in and out of itself?
No. 4389
>>4388

Isn't that the idea behind Renko and Maribel?
No. 4391
>>4389
They live in the future. And one of them time travels in her dreams. Hardly normal.
No. 4393
>>4391
How is "living in the future" abnormal? Your grandkids live in the future, are they somehow supernatural due to this?
No. 4395
Actually, one of them has the ability to see boundaries, and the other has the ability to navigate by the stars down to the meter. I'm pretty sure that's not normal.
No. 4396
>>4395
Normal is subjective, though. Sanae is the descendant of a deity and can perform miracles, yet by Gensokyo's standards she's ordinary. Compared to her, the powers of Renko and Mary are probably no more impressive than being able to tie your shoes.
No. 4397
>>4393
Unless the future somehow manages to stagnate for decades, yeah, I'd call it not normal by my standards. They would think the past is weird, as well.
No. 4398
>>4397
And Mary and Renko's time has tourist trips to the moon and a train that goes from Tokyo to Kyoto in under an hour, so it's pretty clear that there hasn't been any stagnation there.
No. 4400
>>4396
The technological advances of the future are scientific and logical. What Renko and Maribel possess is clearly supernatural and illogical by the standards of the outside world, enough to form an exclusive club.
No. 4401
>>4400
So? You think they're the first people who ever had some weird interest that goes against conventional wisdom and what most of the world considers normal that compelled them to gather together?

Besides, why should the norms of the outside world even enter into this? If we're still talking about a hypothetical character who is so "normal" and boringly average that no Touhous would take notice of them, why would you not go by their standards of what is or is not normal?
No. 4418
>>4401
The thing is that most CYOAs sort of take special abilities for granted.(being a knight, mad biologist with doublethink, arm cannons , etc.)
Normal would be like a protagonist in a HP Lovecraft story, having no inherent advantages and forced to piece together scraps of information to even gain access to the forbidden secrets or realms.
Of course, that could just be a really dreadful and slow story that would have no place on this site, right?
No. 4419
>>4418
Trouble is, that the reader already know most of the universe.
So unless you create some "Gensor'lyeth" from your own, you're forced to discover what the reader already know.
No. 4421
>>4419
they know the basic outline of canon Gensokyo, but not the specific touches and details of a writer's Gensokyo. Such an assumption lead to stores going plotplotplotfillerplotetc., ignoring any attempt at world building.
No. 4422
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4422
No. 4428
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4428
>>4419
What, are you new to Touhou? Canon is loose and mostly half-serious, so there's a lot of room to make up your own interpretations and backstories without things seeming too out-of-character. The whole thing is like a template that you can fit to any kind of story. That's why there's been such an explosion of fanworks.
No. 4429
>>4428
That said, it's still really cool when characters act like I think they should act. Loose canon be damned.

It's the difference between meeting a new friend and seeing an old one. The entire point of fanfiction is mixing the familiar with the new.
No. 4430
>>4428
Definitely true, but some choose to ignore what canon there is completely for their own ends, usually yuri angst or memes that ceased to be funny a month after their birth. It's not like pad jokes are funny, right?
No. 4433
>>4428
I mean the character.
It's hard to create mysteries around a canon character. For example, let's say you write a passage when your protag can only see his archnemesis' hair. And it's green.

Anon will understand very quickly who's in charge, through reasoning, and there will be no mystery.
No. 4434
>>4433
In a crazy twist, it turns out it was a wig!
No. 4435
>>4433
And then dramatic irony was a forbidden art.
No. 4437
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4437
I am surprised that no one has made a writer powerlevel thread yet.
No. 4438
>>4437
Fine, here's one:
Me > YAF > Lion > J to E > HY.

Seriously now, it's impossible to do something like that without insulting 80% of THP's writefags.
"What do you mean, I'm behind patchwork? Okay, he's good, but he's never updating!"
"What do you mean, glasnost is god tier? He gave up!"
No. 4439
>>4433
That's a bad concept to use with Touhou. There's plenty of room to set up mysteries with many characters as even all the canon still leaves some blind spots to fill in. An example would be Meiling's back story before she started working for Remilia.

>>4438
Glasnost didn't give up, he just got lazy with THP. In the meanwhile he's been translating the kasen manga. He started a short story thread (in /gensokyo/) as to get himself back in the habit of writing. But many writers have sizable flaws about themselves.
No. 4441
>>4439
Most of them are lazy, some of them are easily-depressed pal, and the rest is emos, ready to slice their wrists if they hear something bad from the TV.
No. 4442
glasnost > everyone else > SolusLunes
No. 4444
>>4437

People have tried. Their attempts degrade into arguments and mud-flinging. Though if you're actually interested in powerlevels as a measure of writer quality, try this method on for size:

Look at all of the "Story/Writer Recommendation" threads throughout the history of the site. A writer's power level is going to be relatively close to the number of times they've been recommended. Don't forget to factor in writers that did not yet exist at the time the thread was made.

Obviously trying to put a numerical rank on authors is an effort in futility, but at least this method will give you a bit of solid insight based on the voice of the people. Is it perfect? Heck no. But it's a start.
No. 4445
>>4444
inb4 someone with way too much free time tallies them up and posts them here to provoke people.
No. 4446
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4446
That idea of power level between writefag made me bleed.
No. 4447
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4447
YAF > everyone else
No. 4448
>>4447
If we didn't use names this wouldn't have happened
No. 4449
>>4442
I love you, man.
No. 4450
>>4448
I agree. I still remember that story YAF started in /shrine/. First post: "omg its yaf i havent read it but it sucks".
No. 4452
>>4450
How did yaf become his name anyway? It was part of his trip. Do the Right Thing's writer uses a trip too but I don't see people naming him with it. Why is that?
No. 4453
>>4452
Because YAF was here longer than DtRT's writefag.
And YAF used his trip when posting in other people's story, while DtRT's writefag post as Anonymous, LIKE THE REST OF US.
No. 4454
>>4452
>>4453

It's not a matter of his trip, YAF is called YAF because that's the name he used to post under in the early days, during his THIS SHRINE runs. He had a different trip back then.
No. 4455
>>4452
It's short for Yandere Alice Fag.
No. 4459
He took a name for a while, and now he's stuck with it forever? That's terrible.
No. 4460
>>4459
One does not choose their own nickname.
No. 4461
>>4460
I was just told that he did choose it. And you could always stop calling him by it. It's not difficult.
No. 4462
>>4461
>And you could always stop calling him by it.
...Why?
No. 4463
>>4462
It'll prevent terrible posts such as >>4447
No. 4464
>>4442
Who is SolusLunes?
No. 4465
>>4463
How would "Reav > Everyone else" be any better?
No. 4466
>>4464
The guy who's writing the Investigator story in /th/
No. 4467
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4467
Some fun facts:
1) I had been Reav before I was YAF, I merely went back to my former nickname. I used to play Enemy Territory rather extensively under this name, though I don't reckon anyone here might possibly recall me. If you do, however, by all means, up and pound this brofist of mi—LANDMINE SPOTTED, CHECK YOUR COMMAND MAP! LANDMINE SPOTTED, CHECK YOUR COMMAND MAP! LANDMINE SPOTTED, CHECK YOUR COMMAND MAP!
2) I did choose the name of YAF myself, yes.
3) I was not, at all, the only YAF there was. Some of you (any at all?) may recall the Yandere Alice threads in /a/ and /jp/'s early days; I used to piss people there off by role-playing a particularly poor, extremely bipolar (and hellishly stuttering) Alice Margatroid. Good times, laughs all around.
Anyhow, in my vast genius and broad understanding of internet security, I had chosen the impervious, absolutely uncrackable and unguessable name/tripcode combination of, dun-dunn-dunnn, "Alice#Margatroid." As you may have figured, someone picked up on that fairly quickly. And then someone else. And yet someone else. So yes. Not a very fun development, it wasn't, really; I should have dropped the name sooner than I did.
Amusingly, I kept getting hearsay of "YAF"s stirring up all kinds of nonsense here on THP and on /jp/ both even after I had initially retreated from the communities (though I never did go to /jp/ a whole lot). I can't say I appreciated that, but at the same time, I'd like to speak with those "YAF"s. Or at least see for myself what sort of laughs they had at my cost in my absence.
4) And lastly, my last tripcode was a joking reference to the name of YAF. Unfortunately, that reference was spoiled by Treia whom I had trusted once to post something in my stead at a time of a malfunctioning internet connection. THANKS, FAGGOT. Now I can't be a giant pink chicken any more. GET BACK ON YOUR PILLS, YOU DYSFUNCTIONAL COCK.

Ahem.

Anyway, here's my official tier list:

DEAD AND FORGOTTEN TIER:
✲ every story I ever liked
STILL ALIVE TIER:
✲ stories I don't give a submarining fuck about

Seriously, thenightsshadow. I'll retardrush you over and over till you're flat like a bloody pancake if you don't resume your story. I swear to all gods, GET BACK TO WORK, YOU TIT.
No. 4468
>STILL ALIVE TIER
>✲ stories I don't give a submarining fuck about
Whelp.
I'm sad now.
No. 4469
No one cares about your blogging shit.

GET BACK TO WORK NIGGER
No. 4470
>>4467
You're mean.
No. 4471
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4471
>>4468
>>4470
Riddle me this, then. How am I supposed to give a fuck about a story if it's very own author doesn't give enough of them to stick with it to the end?
Hell, most quitters don't even care enough to drop a heads-up for their readers when they elect to abandon their creations. How bloody useless is that?

I can forgive people like thenightsshadow, who was very enthusiastic about his story (almost disproportionally to its span, size of the readerbase and quality, I must add) and was forced to quit it for a time by powers that be; the rest of you slackers deserve no sympathy.
No. 4472
>>4471
Am I misreading this, or did you just say you don't give a shit about all currently running stories and then turn around and say you don't give a shit about dropped stories? What.
No. 4473
>>4471
You'll get no sympathy from YAF.

But dont you think you're a tad bit harsh? Sure, There are a lot of unfinished stories (I'm looking at you gensokyo high) that were pretty fun to read, but there's also stories like The Game which were also finished. Not every story on here is cursed to be dropped after thread 2 you know.

>>4472
Pretty sure that was it, yeah.
No. 4474
>>4471
>Riddle me this, then. How am I supposed to give a fuck about a story if it's very own author doesn't give enough of them to stick with it to the end?
The pot calling the kettle black. You of all people should know why they do that. And you should tell us, while you're at it, because I have no fucking idea.
No. 4475
>>4467


I don't know how many times I need to say this, but that wasn't me. Like I said, you have full permission to check IPs or whatever the fuck else you want. It wasn't me.


By the way, keep sucking this guy's (thenightsshadow) cock. I regret helping you stalk find him. Ya freak. Go back to crying in your own story about how the weather and laptop gods have conspired against you.
No. 4478
>>4471
>Riddle me this, then. How am I supposed to give a fuck about a story if it's very own author doesn't give enough of them to stick with it to the end?

I don't see how that applies to the sadness relative to your statement that all active story tier stories are under no submarining fuck classification.
No. 4479
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4479
>>4475
UPDATE NOW YA RICE-FACED WHORE!
No. 4480
What the fuck is YAF smoking
No. 4481
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4481
No. 4488
>>4480
>YAF smoking
I'm pretty sure he does much more then that.
No. 4495
>>4467
>Some of you (any at all?) may recall the Yandere Alice threads in /a/ and /jp/'s early days; I used to piss people there off by role-playing a particularly poor, extremely bipolar (and hellishly stuttering) Alice Margatroid. Good times, laughs all around.

There are still Alice roleplay threads on /a/. It's effective method of trolling, I'll give you that.