Archived Thread

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1242 No. 1242
Lunatic /blue/

No. 1257
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No. 1275
...Yorihime actually looks kind of pretty in those pics. Too bad I have a fairly strong dislike of the character herself.

Of course, Toyohime chasing or eating out Tenshi is vastly superior in my opinion.
No. 1276
I find Yorihime is kind of attractive, but I have a thing for girls with swords. I never read the doujin she's in, so I don't have the hate towards her.

I have been considering having her show up in a CYOA being planned, not my current of course.
No. 1277
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No. 1280
No one doubts her looks, just her general existence. Moon sues, Moon Wesleys, etc. Yeah they're in "TheWesley" trope.

SSiB is not a doujin, but a comic written by ZUN (I kinda wished he didn't)
No. 1281
Sorry my mistake, I use doujin as a pretty big catchall. I know ZUN wrote it, I just haven't read it.
No. 1282
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In fairness, Yorihime is smoking hot, even if she is kind of a bitch.
No. 1284
I feel like one of the scant few people who likes the Watatsukis.


Mary Sue, The Wesley, you keep using those words. I do not think they
mean what you think they mean.
No. 1285
Did you actually see the TvTropes entry for "TheWesley"? The sisters are listed in it! They're overpowered (even for Touhou) to the point of breaking the rules shoved down our throats and we're told "They're really powerful" as Toyohime basically pwned whoever went against her as if she was pwning Daiyousei. If they were in a game and we could fight against them, maybe then they'd have gone over better.

There's a reason why in a series known for its demented and sometimes bitchy characters, the moon sisters are among the least favorite of the bunch.
No. 1287
Isn't the crux of the problem whenever it was a danmaku duel or not? Since Touhou is "balanced" by that system. It's doubtful a lot of the characters would even be a fight without it.

Just sayin'.
No. 1288
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>using TVtropes terminology
>citing TVtropes as anything other than a joke
No. 1289
Did you mean 'whether'?

It was a danmaku duel. Remilia, Reimu, and Marisa spent about half a chapter explaining danmaku duels and why they chose to solve problems using duels back in Gensokyo. This was shortly after Yorihime made it perfectly clear that Marisa, Reimu, Remilia, Sakuya, and the maids together would not stand any sort of chance against Yorihime. So they taught her how to do a duel, where they still didn't stand a chance.

The sisters are horrendously overpowered, and although hated by the fanbase, seemed to have been fairly well liked by the rabbit soldiers (wasn't there some stupid conspiracy theory going around the moon against them or something though?). I doubt they meet all the criteria of being a sue, but I'd say Wesley is fine.
No. 1290
Well considering they're the commanders of the Lunarian Defense Corps, they should be liked by their own soldiers...

But I see.
No. 1291
File 126712578577.png - (81.33KB , 449x506 , It's Stardust for breakfast!.png ) [iqdb]
Yorihime eats danmaku for breakfast.
No. 1292
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Powerlevels and TVtropes.
This Thread is awesome.
No. 1293
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No. 1294

You know, there's a reason why the futa thread was deleted apart from, you know, cocks...
No. 1297
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I don't really get the hate towards the sisters. It has long been known that the Lunarians were grossly overpowered(see Yukari's first failed attempt at invading the Moon over 1000 years ago), and when we finally get to see them in action, everyone bitches and moans about it. Seriously, it's like no one saw Reimu and the gang losing to them at all.

If Yukari and a friggin' army of youkai got their asses handed to them a 1000 years ago, what did you expect to happen with 3 humans and a vampire.

Also, >>1285

What the fuck is wrong with you. This isn't Counter-Strike, goddamn it.
No. 1298

One of them has a sword that can summon any god she chooses to counter anything thrown at her perfectly, and I mean anything.

The other has a fan that's basically a reusable nuke without the radioactive after effects.

They both know how to use their weapons very well.

It's been stated that if they didn't decide to follow the Spellcard rules, most of the regular cast would be dead just for standing in the wrong spot. This is why Yukari gave up immediately, you can't really do much when there's a god preventing you from using your powers properly or your vaporized.
No. 1299
Lunarians even beat humans! And by how some people think one guy with a machine gun could kill every youkai in Gensokyo, this means something.
No. 1300
That attempt wasn't serious and more of a lesson to those rebellious Youkai. And I doubt any of those youkai were at the strength of a typical Touhou character. The same was ultimately the case in SSiB (She was never trying to beat them, just stealing something.)

And it's not so much losing, but how badly they lost. And not all Lunarians are grossly overpowered, otherwise the Imperishable night incident would have never been resolved.

See, grossly cheap stuff here. Sure Yukari gave up her attempt after seeing the atomic fan, but she did have a plan B with Yuyuko and Youmu.
No. 1302

There is zero canon basis for the "Yukari meant to lose the first Lunar War" theory. Given how long ago the Genso-Lunar War seems to have been, and given how powerful the Watatsuki Sisters are, it's a fair bet that Yukari really did get her ass handed to her back in the day. She wasn't always the powerhouse she is now, after all.

Half the hate on the Watatsuki sisters seems to come from Yukari fanboys who don't like to admit that Yukari may have made mistakes in the past.
No. 1303
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>>And not all Lunarians are grossly overpowered, otherwise the Imperishable night incident would have never been resolved.

The "incident" involving the moon would have resolved itself even if none of the heroines had chosen to act. If anything, their involvement made the incident even worse by freezing the night and making it last far longer than it otherwise would have.

As for how powerful the Lunarians are, remember that it's said that Eirin holds her powers back out of respect to Kaguya, and she herself claims to have far stronger charms than the one she used to sever the link between the Moon and Earth.

Plus, don't forget that IN was resolved with all parties more or less following the Spell Card rules, and those duels are not an effective means of gauging someone's actual power.

Besides, it's not like they're the only ones who are essentially unbeatable when confronted in a certain way. Yuugi and Suika would be pretty much impossible for anyone else to defeat in a purely physical fight, for example, and nobody would be able to stop someone like Flandre if she really went all-out with her powers.
No. 1305
I find it hard to hate the Moonbitches for being overpowered when the heroines didn't actually look like they were trying that hard. The ones on the moon seemed to be playing more than anything and Yukari just went "lol k" while Yuyuko was raiding the vaults. It's not like there was an actual life-or-death fight or anything.
No. 1306
And like The moon sister fans aren't also fans of badly done overpowered shounen characters who often asspull things? Coughsasukecough. Toyohime has at least her ditziness offsetting that cheap fan. Yorihime? There's a reason why few folks mix a battle focused personality, high power, and diverse powers. That reason being the result is overpowered to an unfun point.

I admit that Yukari's invasion idea, even in the context of trying to teach some over-rebellious youkai a lesson was a mistake. Just look at how long they held that grudge.

Most hate of them comes from the fact they come off as overpowered self-inserts smacking around the familiar characters with sickening ease. If it wasn't for the fact that ZUN wrote it, all of the fandom would be bitching about it. Yeah, it's like the Castlevania Judgement of Touhou. Canon yet the fans wish otherwise.

I was referring to the fact that the typical rabbit soldiers are said to have WWII-grade weapons at best. Reisen U. is an exceptional case of a moon rabbit, so she cannot be used as the normal standard for them.
No. 1307
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I like think of SSiB in a different perspective. If it were a game, the playable characters would most likely not but Reimu and the others, but the Watatsuki sisters. Crazy idea, I know, but if you think about it, it does make some sense.

1. Main incident happens on the moon. The Watatsuki sisters must defend the moon from invaders, much like how the playable characters in the other games would defend Gensokyo from the people stirring up trouble.

2. You've got eight people invading the moon: Sakuya, Remilia, Marisa, Reimu, Yukari and Ran, and Yuyuko and Youmu. Splitting them up, that's enough to make six stages.
Stage 1: Sakuya
Stage 2: Marisa
Stage 3: Remilia
Stage 4: Reimu(this should be no surprise, seeing as she tends to be the stage 4 boss for other games when not playing her.)
Stage 5: Yukari and Ran
Stage 6: Yuyuko and Youmu

I'd even go as far as to say that the sisters are somewhat modeled after Reimu and Marisa: Yorihime uses divine powers much like Reimu, while Toyohime wields a much more destructive force like Marisa.

Crazy speculation aside, it was pretty obvious Yukari had no intention of actually fighting the Lunarians. Her whole plan was to use Reimu and the gang and herself as distractions while she secretly snuck Yuyuko into the capital to steal something. While Yukari expected something extremely valuable such as a weapon, Yuyuko simply grabbed a bottle of sake. It didn't really matter to Yukari, since her goal of making the Lunarians lose face was accomplished. Yukari pretty much admits during her encounter with Toyohime that she stood no chance in direct combat with her.

Blah blah, I've been stupidly rambling for too long. I'll end this with a page of Tewi picking the right side.
No. 1308
Traitorous rabbit.
No. 1309
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>much like how the playable characters in the other games would defend Gensokyo from the people stirring up trouble
No, that doesn't happen. Playable characters go hunt down people at random when trouble occurs. Defenders are always stage bosses.
No. 1310
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>This is why Yukari gave up immediately
No. 1311
Was SSiB ever finished and/or fully translated?
No. 1312
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Much like i did with Kaguya, I found myself liking Yorihime a whole lot more after she showed up in the Inaba comics.

While I can see why her "Overpowered HAX by even Touhou standards" thing might not work so well when played completely straight, when portrayed in a far less serious setting I think there could be a lot of fun to be found with a character like her.

I don't think there's any real problem with the character or even her abilities, just the way they were presented.

Of course, the fact she's a sword-wielding pony-tailed girl with possible tsundere elements doesn't hurt.
No. 1313
If they appeared in a game so we could actually see how strong they are other than seeing the cast get beaten just because it's said so, then I think folks would be a bit more accepting of them.

But the Lunarian kingdom is a messed up place if they let that atomizing fan exist in the first place. Really if you think about it, it's not much better than Earth and its WMDs.
No. 1314
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>>But the Lunarian kingdom is a messed up place if they let that atomizing fan exist in the first place. Really if you think about it, it's not much better than Earth and its WMDs.

I'm not so sure about that.
If the purpose of the fan is to "purify" things at the atomic level, and "purify" isn't simply being used euphemistically but really does mean it destroys impurities, then theoretically the effect it has might vary depending on where and on what it's used.
For example, on the impurity-filled Earth it might cause massive destruction, but it might not cause any harm at all on the impurity-free Moon. Well, not to anything from the moon, at least.

I imagine it would be a very effective means of defending the against invaders from a place like Earth, if it's able to destroy them while leaving everything else unharmed. In that way, you could probably say that it actually is better than the nukes and WMDs of Earth, since none of those weapons are anywhere near as selective about who or what they destroy.

Then again, maybe it really is just as bad as those weapons, and the Lunarians are just that nutty.
Remember, these are beings who are supposedly immortal, yet banished Kaguya for making and drinking an elixir that makes people...immortal.
No. 1315
Problem is when Lunarians talk about pure and impure, that's just their opinions. The Lunarians struck me akin to puritans/extreme believers in a religion. Their standards are so messed up, just about everything is wrong/impure.

As far as the exiling Kaguya part, the Lunar kingdom had the gall to ask her to come back. Yet she didn't want to go back. What does this say about the moon when its own princess did not want to go back to it?
No. 1316

In fairness, Kaguya seems to feel that she herself is "impure" judging by her chapter of CiLR. She just happens to think that it is much more interesting, and not really objectively worse than "purity." She even starts cultivating a Jeweled Hourai Tree to measure her own degree of impurity, and more for curiosity than out of any real concern. In other words, her objection to the returning to the capital seems to be predicated on the fact that she thinks the capital is incredibly dull.

Of course, CiLR also shows that canon Kaguya is nice, friendly, and concerned with making herself a more well-rounded individual, so most people will probably ignore it anyway.
No. 1317
That reminds me of one of the biggest grievances with fanon: How they treat Kaguya. They like to show her as a bitchy NEET that's useless. This goes in stark contrast in what's shown in CiLR and Bohemian archive in japanese red, better known as the book with all of Aya's articles, etc.

While we're on the topic of Fanon grievances, other major cases are: Stuttering Tsundere Alice, Mega-Bitch Reimu, Constant Ice Bitch Sakuya, and so forth. Some of these are shocking since they run quite contrary to canon sources that few fans bother to look in, such as endings and ZUN written materials, keeping in mind intention inaccuracy (PMiSS) and or the fact it's done just to be silly (the inaba comics). You can see a list on the Wikia's front page.

Back on topic, I feel the typical lunarian belief in purity is sucking the figurative life out of their society, rendering it quite dull compared to how things are on the seemingly 'impure' earth. This in turn brings up the "Puritan fanatical" vibe again.
No. 1318
I think the Lunarian concept of purity is based more upon elves than Puritans, in the sense that though they may be superior, it's based more upon their race, which leads to an inevitable stagnation.

Then again, I haven't read SSiB, but other people agreed with that comparison.
No. 1319
Lunarians are humans. They are also implied to be the source of magic. It's not so much that they're a race apart (like elves) but that they were a collection of wise humans that left Earth behind for what I presume is enlightenment.

I see the value they place on purity as a reflection of the usual Buddhist/oriental thought with a good measure of stoicism. I don't think their outlook on Earth isn't so much the 'filthy humans' thing. They've been spurring social and technological development on Earth, occasionally testing rulers with temptations and such.
No. 1320

I know they're human, but their attitude reminds me of dickish elves. Maybe I should read SSiB first, though...
No. 1321
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While the Lunarians are, indeed, dickish, I'm inclined to cut them a little slack regarding the whole "pure/impure" thing.

From what I can tell, their lack of impurity is what allows them to remain essentially immortal. I imagine the lack of change and decay that purity brings is also beneficial to their society, allowing it to remain stable for as long as it has.

Compare that to the impurity on Earth, which is essentially the cause of the aging, decay, and inevitable death and/or destruction of pretty much everything on the planet, as well as the countless civilizations that had risen and fallen in all the centuries that Lunarians have been around. The impurity of Earth and everything on it isn't just something they find detestable "just because", it's something that basically runs counter to the nature of their very existence.

I can't help but wonder if their relationship could be compared to the one between Celestials and youkai. Two sides that are so opposed to each other, one side is actually harmful to the other.

Even if impure beings aren't exactly toxic to them like Celestials are to youaki, I think it makes at least some of their negative feelings toward those beings a little more understandable. Would you look favorably upon something whose very nature poses a risk of destroying your very way of life, albeit very slowly?
No. 1322
But what point is there in living dang near forever if those years are basically boring and lifeless? Things like excitement, passion, and high end enjoyment are rather foreign to the typical Lunarian. And there's Kaguya who with Eirin's help went through terribly great lengths to avoid going back.

I can't help but get the impression that the first Lunarians were like "Screw you earthings, I'm leaving" People in the US prone to forget the so called pilgrims were basically folks that the English considered too extreme in their views, kinda like that guy who thought the teletubbies were gay.
No. 1323
>Things like excitement, passion, and high end enjoyment are rather foreign to the typical Lunarian.
[Citation Needed]
Truth be told we don't know a whole bunch about Lunarian society beyond the fact that they're human, left Earth long ago, are highly technologically advanced and may have long lifespans.

They are not robots. They are human. Kaguya and Eirin may be exiles but one must assume that some of their traits are common to the whole. The mere fact that they have personalities (and again are human) would lead one to assume that they too feel normal emotions and your so-called 'passions'.

You lost me though at the last line wiseman.
No. 1324
Then why would Kaguya consider the moon dull? And you forget that the two Lunarians in question have spent alot of time on Earth, so they're not quite typical Lunarians any more. And who to say they don't consider things like Passion 'impure' just due to the fact following one's passions never leads you to enlightenment.
No. 1325
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>>Then why would Kaguya consider the moon dull?

Perhaps for a similar reason to why Tenshi considered life in Heaven to be boring, and her personality was just such that life on the moon didn't suit her? I would imagine both the Lunarians and Celestials require a certain kind of personality and mind-set in order to live like they do, and if someone is lacking in that they can't help but become dissatisfied with it. Those who do have it, though, could be perfectly happy and content with their lives.

Hell, Reimu was there for roughly a month, and came away with a seemingly positive view of the place and the people living there. Of course, tourists tend to see places in a more positive light than the people who have to live there constantly, and just about anyone's view of a place could change if spent there long enough, but it still provides for at least a little hint that life there is hardly one of monotonous drudgery.

It might not be for everyone, but perhaps it's enough for them.
No. 1327
I see it as Kaguya finding out through her Exile that being on earth was a great deal more fun than the stuffy moon. Perhaps that might have altered her personality/mindset enough to see the moon as boring. It's a plot point in some stories that leaving "the dome" or some other term is really awful since it's impure/etc. But when the main character ends up outside it turns out it's anything but that and actually livelier than "The Dome".
No. 1436
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No. 1439


I'm half-hoping this isn't a joke. Explain?
No. 1441